Kristin, emotionally, I'm with you. But to demand that "Players credibly accused of serious misconduct need to be named and suspended" is wrong.
For the past decade (perhaps the "MeToo" decade) we have been confronted by accusations that, when a generous dollop of "credibility" is applied, could not only ruin an individual hockey career but derail a lifetime. Such ruin is easily evident.
Yes, hockey culture must change--but to provide quick determination of guilt. Our hockey system needs to act with determination and impatience on such accusations. When guilt--and only guilt--is determined, naming and suspension should be immediate.
Any system with an accusation of sexual assault should act with determination as quickly as possible. But the legal system is slow. Three different groups are investigating and everyone is waiting on the others to finish. There is confusion about some players cooperating at least part of the time with some of the investigations. It's been 4 years already. Far too long.
We agree, Lou. And I'm certain you didn't miss my final comment about "quick determination of guilt". Were Canada Hockey to step up to this, they'd find a way that would cut throught the crap now incumbering the formal legal process. What's missing, it seems, is the determination to make a timely and valid determination.
It seems that Hockey Can has been managing quite nicely by dancing around, delaying, possibly obstructing, and definitely paying to protect their players.
I think the "me too" movement helped a lot of people come forward. Especially if they were one of a number who was abused by one individual.
Mic asked why victims aren't reporting these crimes as they happen. I think the question still is why is it happening at all? One reason would be the guys at the top feel it's better to pay off the victim so their potential super-stars aren't distracted by anything as sordid as a rape charge. They don't see that they are as much a problem as the players.
Innocent until proven guilty. Trust but verify. The punishment MUST be swift and certain.
I call it the “front of the line” mentality. As an ex wife of a hockey player I had a birds eye view of this world. It is toxic and not a good thing for players, families or anyone else.
I'm not a hockey fan so I'm not emotionally invested in sheltering people working in this industry. In fact, some part of me would like to see this sacred cow tipped over
This crap occurs in all sports it seems, but it going on with Hockey Canada really hits Canadians hard. Hockey is one of the few things that bring Canadians together "from coast to coast to coast" and it's one of the few things we are actually the best in the world at. So of course Canadians want to protect the sanctity of our most popular sport and our national team program. It's of course misplaced passion and probably immoral in the grand scheme, but it is understandable.
That said, if we exhibited the same passion toward science, the arts and letters or perhaps business, this country would be more prosperous, less boring, more consequential and overall better off.
The sad part is that this nonsense is going to undercut our long term future as "the best in the world" at this sport. I won't put my kids into minor hockey at this point. Not only is it expensive (a huge problem, but a surmountable one)... it's toxic. I want my kids to be able to play hockey, because hockey rules and other than maybe baseball, it's the best "lifelong sport." But not at the expense of exposing them to the cesspool of minor hockey locker rooms. If enough parents are thinking along similar lines, Canada will start to drop off the hockey map.
Why does no one think this has to with the exploitation of young men who are sheltered from normal socialization and inculcated with illusions of greatness and being supra-human and protected by adults who know exactly what is going on?
There needs to be proof, before "I wish" all the players are painted with this very broad brush! This will follow them for the rest of their lives, and as seen before once the media decides, guilt is assumed
Seems like too many Dads think they’re Walter Gretzky & it’s okay for their kid to focus solely on hockey, to be sent away at a young age & to live in this dangerous culture.
Kristin - I agree with a lot of what you said but there are two points I'm going to push back on.
It's a fine line to suggest anyone in an alleged sexual assault should be suspended and outed and are guilty until proven innocent. Proceedings re: an assault can take months or years to weave their way through a civil or criminal investigations/courts and innocent people can be falsely accused. I see it this way as a dad who has both a daughter and a son. If my daughter was sexually assaulted I'd be furious. But if my son was accused and went through years of proceedings before being proclaimed innocent I'd be just as furious. So be careful what you wish for here because it could be someone you love who is falsely accused and have their reputations tattered.
2nd pushback:
Why are you lumping in Don Cherry and his "you people" incident with a story about sexual assaults/cover up by Hockey Canada, culture of entitlement and worship culture of players? False equivalent.
Don Cherry's statement was completely misinterpreted as a micro aggression or racist comment against visible minorities when in fact it was not. His choice of words was poor, but his point was a fair comment.
What's too bad is that he was one analyst who never pulled punches, much like Charles Barkley. We don't have enough of those in this world of political correctness and cancel culture.
It's too bad that he's not around. Guaranteed if all came to light while he was in the HNIC booth he would be eviscerating anyone involved in this. He wouldn't be the passive wimp among the hockey panels who are too afraid to rock the boat because they want to be buddy buddy with the players and coaches so they get access and keep their cozy jobs.
But your 2nd misses the mark. Cherry has a long history of saying the completely wrong thing and McLean nodding along...always, so often that I think he never really listen to Cherry. It has nothing to do with being PC or with cancel culture, or if it does, good, damned well about time. Because Cherry says a thing does not make it good, right, the truth, or even useful. Three generations of hockey players we were all in agreement when Cherry got the boot.
Let's bring back Peter Puck with new and updated encouragement on and off the ice.
Maybe we should look at hockey as a TEAM sport not just individual players. It is a team and everyone works together. Learning to be a team player is helpful in all aspects of life.
I agree if there is abuse going on whether by coaches, players etc. it is a crime. Then punish accordingly and maybe people will think before abusing. No I don’t have my head in the sand. The big word is RESPECT. Respect is a two street. Our youngsters need to learn respect and adults need to respect the kids.
Also let’s take out all the “politics” in minor hockey and let kids have fun as they learn skills and team playing. I never was a hockey mom because minor hockey ruled your life.
...more than twice as many NHL draftees are born in Jan-Mar than are born in Oct-Dec: 36% vs 15%. Why? Well, when the little kids go into Mighty Mites, or whatever little league, some of them are just barely 8 years old, some "in the same year" are turning 9. The bigger kids in any school year are better athletes, so get extra praise, attention, success. This starts a feedback loop where they get cheered on in hockey, and sent to extra training camps, etc.
So, only partially do they get to commit rape with impunity because they're sports heroes: they also get to commit rape with impunity, because they were literally born lucky.
If a person is assaulted, they can report it to a police agency.
Assault, including sexual assault, is a crime in Canada.
The police are responsible for gathering evidence and laying charges against the suspect.
A crown prosecutor then determines if the is sufficient evidence to take the case to trial.
How has this process been pre-empted by professional sports organizations?
Have they been buying - off complainants?
Do they offer money to complainants to get them to drop charges?
Would this practise not be construed as an obstruction of justice?
Perhaps an example of how professional sports organizations prevent athletes from being tried for crimes they are alleged to have committed would help give this issue more clarity.
Much has peen reported about the ability of these sports organizations’ ability to circumvent our justice system - just how do they do it?
Its not just sport teams that do it but celebrities, politicians, and those with money. Look at the Jeffrey Epstien case. How many people that aided in the abuse were charged? Names came out but no one was brought up on charges and the ladies suing did not even mention names. Why? Because those who were guilty paid for silence. (non disclosure acts). We could start at the top and work our way down but the only thing separating Hockey Canada from the top is that they kept a paper trail. So they will be the ones hung out to dry.
Don't kid yourself. There was plenty of paper trails in the Epstein case. But the names on it were too powerful. As one wag put it, Maxwell was found guilty of human trafficking young girls to nobody.
It starts early on. Kids of single digit ages. Dad and often mom is in the stands screaming "drop your gloves!"-"hit him!" etc. I've seen kids standing there, looking utterly lost while the parents are going insane. Sure enough, soon enough, that kid is dropping his gloves. All the kids witness it even if their parents/family aren't on them about killing the other 7 or 8 year old. While this behavior occasionally hits the news, mostly it doesn't. It doesn't happen every game either but this scene and others like it happen all the time. I've seen dads outside of change rooms nose to nose shrieking, spittle and F bombs flying.
I'm not saying when assaults and especially sexual assaults happen the people responsible shouldn't be held responsible. I'd like any enablers to have pay in some way too but it's never cut and dried. Should that kid on the ice who dropped his gloves and hit the other kid be charged. Of course not. But that's where (in hockey anyway) it starts. In their teens they are out in the parking lot with the girlfriends watching as they fight the guy that tripped him and did or did not get a penalty.
Then if they are good enough they make some level of big time and dad is still in the stands screaming and life is good. Why should he expect actual rules to matter?
If they are not good enough they join a beer league and too often the same behaviour kicks in when their kids take to the ice. Seldom does anyone get charged.
Nothing here surprises me unfortunately. No one can say that violence on and off the ice is not a problem. What I find sad is that what caught everyone's attention is that they used the "National Equity Fund" to cover "expenses". Never mind the sexual assault. Sheldon Kennedy is correct. Hockey Canada's CEO etc. must resign, they must go. They are beyond dealing with toxic.
Kristin Raworth has the right of it other than that one sentence. And Jess Allen is owed an apology.
I still don’t understand why these crimes are not reported to the appropriate authorities by the victims and pursued through the courts.
Canadian courts have become much more receptive and accommodating of those victims of sexual assault.
If such victims are allowing themselves to be bought off from pursuing perpetrators through the courts, they are simply enabling the practise.
If the focus of this debate is on the validity of sports organizations co-opting the justice system on behalf of their members, the nature of their interference should be highlighted - what victims have been paid to withhold or drop charges against such members by these sponsor organizations?
Can't you think of any reasons why assault (let's go with sex assault for now) isn't reported?
I agree, the courts are much more receptive than they were even a few decades ago, for the most part. While sexual assault is too often something a woman undergoes, men, especially younger men, are also in that number.
Variables abound but for a moment imagine a young woman, with her friends, are partying with the "team". They are all drinking and dancing and having a good time. Assorted drugs may be available. Somehow our girl is separated from her friends and next thing it's 8 big strong young men and her.
At first she is with only one guy but all of a sudden there are 2,3 and more. First bewilderment, then fear, moving on to panic. Supposing our young woman is a confident, reasonable person who we can be sure did not invite 8 guys to assault her but afterwards her confidence and sense of self is destroyed. Nothing like this has ever happened to her before. We don't know if one or more may have said something to her but probably something was said, if only "no one will believe you."
So it's later that night or early the next day and what is going through her mind? I've been raped by 8 guys, what if I am pregnant? How can I go to school/work? What if I tell the police and they do nothing? Rape kits are ignored. What is my mom/dad/boyfriend going to say? I'll tell my BFF but she was raped and he got off. Why did I go to that party? These and dozens of other thoughts are zooming around her head. She isn't thinking, I'll be a good citizen and report these guys and the Canadian justice system is there just for such a crime.
The reasons why these crimes are still not reported as often and as quickly as they should is because the victim or the parents are made to feel as if it were their fault. The police are not known as a bastion of sensitivity. Some lawyer for Hockey Canada rolls in and tells her she doesn't want to ruin these guys futures but if she was willing to look the other way her schooling would be covered, blah blah blah. After all, she was at the party, she was drunk, she isn't a virgin, she's over 18 (and whatever else is useful). And it works. By the way, sign this NDA. If you speak up we'll sue you and yours until the end of time.
If it was your daughter, what would you want her to do? If she did report it it to the appropriate authorities, would she be strong enough to withstand the fallout, would you?
The young woman who was assaulted by 8 players of the World Juniors team in 2018 is to be supported and commended for her courage for coming forward. The past four years must have been an incredible hell for her. We don't know the details, we don't really need to. But there is something seriously broken in Hockey Canada and maybe this is a step in the right direction. I could get into male privilege but I don't need to, do I?
Should one or all eight of these guys be charged and convicted, I am hoping they get more than, oh, community service, or a year or 3 in prison. The consequences of such crimes are not commensurate with the damage they do.
The scenario you present has historical precedent and that is why this issue has arisen.
My point is that if there is credible evidence that the course of justice was obstructed by any professional sports organization, they should be subject to prosecution.
If the young woman who was allegedly assaulted was offered money by such an organization to withhold her complaint, or evidence pertinent to the determination a crime was committed, then that organization should be liable to criminal prosecution as well as those who carried out the assault.
Young women now have far more awareness of their rights and courts that afford them credible recourse in the event they are sexually assaulted.
Assaults that have occurred in past are coming to light as well as the efforts taken by professional sports organizations to protect their members/employees from prosecution for the crimes they have been alleged to have committed.
What is missing from the debate is a specific case of how and by whom a sexual assault victim was paid or intimidated from laying charges against her assailant(s).
If credible action is to be taken to prevent the obstruction of justice by professional sports organizations, the individuals who facilitate the practise must be identified, charged and tried for their complicity.
The current blanket condemnation is not useful in determining just who has been responsible for dispensing funds to victims in order to buy their silence.
No, you said, "I still don’t understand why these crimes are not reported to the appropriate authorities by the victims and pursued through the courts."
What I wrote is not historical precedent. It happens every day, as it has forever. Generally, though, we don't hear about it unless someone shares the information with the press/media. Hockey Can has obviously been paying people off to the tune of millions over a matter of years. Yes, that is a huge piece of the problem.
If a rapist gets 3 years in prison, what should the CEO and board of a company get for hiding the crime? In this instance x 8. How many times have they covered for the players in the past? Any players? Firing is not good enough for these guys. While they did not assault someone directly, they condoned it, they enabled it.
So we are in agreement; the facilitators must be identified, charged and tried. What exactly is their crime? Fraud? How many counts? Who else was involved?
Sometimes it's not money. It could be a job, a better job, a title, or simply a threat.
Young women today do have more awareness of their rights, mostly, but they don't spend a lot of time thinking about it. The courts often afford them credible recourse, but not always. A young woman may not have the life experience to follow through with the police. As I said before, the police are an issue. Not all police, not all of the time, but still too often the survivor of a sexual assault is too traumatized, too fragile, too frightened, or too confused to explain clearly what she endured. Even to go to the police is a massive decision. What she may not know about the legal system, what she does know is how others in similar situations may have been treated.
She has been violated. Hurt to her core. Going after the team is one thing, going after HC probably didn't occur to her until a lawyer (probably) brought it up and convinced her to do so. We don't know what she was offered to keep her silence, do we? Again, too many variables.
HC stating that they have a plan to clean up the "toxic" culture is insulting. They nurtured the toxicity. The NFL is doing it too. Some young star is apparently in trouble for many sexual assaults. Old news but the old boy system protects/protected him.
What is so heartbreaking is that the story is not new. No one should pretend they are surprised or shocked. There isn't a woman on the planet who is. So it's not a debate, the information is available to those who are paying attention. Maybe not the details of this specific case but 4 years, 3 or 4 investigations will clear that up eventually. Why do our young men, our hockey, football, rock, whatever, stars behave in such a manner? Everything we hope to teach our children goes out of the window when they achieve some level of "stardom"?
This young woman has taken a lie detector test to confirm her credibility. It's not admissible in a court but her lawyers have released the information to combat the smears and innuendos from those who either don't believe her or don't want to. This is the reality of coming forward, at least a bit of it.
Again, she deserves respect, compassion, and understanding. Instead, she will be Twitter fodder, FB slams, doxing no doubt and whataboutisms.
Do you remember the 1st Ottawa Slut Walk in 2011? Ihttps://toronto.ctvnews.ca/slutwalk-organized-to-protest-officer-s-comments-1.626977
There’s lots that can be done. Having an outsider who knows nothing about the sport, suggest that someone who has a vendetta against hockey players - just cuz - should receive an apology- is asinine. It’s nothing more than yapping at the trees to make a headline and it’s tiresome. Lots of good commentary has already been made by female hockey commentators in the broadcast booth and elsewhere so why not listen to them? What the hell is this nonsense here? I hate sideswipes from the cheap seats.
I've been saying for years and years - athletes shouldn't talk, just play the game. And what's happened? They are more coached on media performance, they are more touted as young stars and their trades are nitpicked and nuanced on 24 hour, TSN programming. In turn, I have turned out pretty much everything to do with hockey, except the first few weeks of playoffs.
If I need a refresher on the most effective sports cliches young hockey stars have it covered. I don't hear any eloquence from hockey stars to be honest.
Sports journalism is the farm team for political journalism. If you can ignore one person being screwed, and still treat the violator "on the balance" as a hero, you can move up to doing the same to pols, who screw millions.
My grandson learned all the words to "O Canada" before he learned to sing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star". He called it the hockey song. Yes my son is a big hockey fan, superstitions and all.
I always took that to mean "an accusation from somebody with no reputation for lying, lacking a major incentive to lie, and much to lose if they are lying". But, it turns out to be this term of art these days:
....and it means that the Catholic Church figures the accusations are not something they can ignore, they'll have to give up the priest in question; the NHL may be adopting the Catholic playbook on handling PR.
I must have missed the stories of female athletes committing crimes of violence and getting away with it, all covered up. Also the scandals in any sport that does not make large sums of money for people, who then have motives to cover up.
I mean, curling fans go wild for our heroes, like Brad Gushue, Val Sweeting, Rachel Homan; they get swarmed for autographs at The Briar; but I can't recall a curling scandal, at least nothing like this. It's only been possible to not have a day-job in curling for a decade or so, and they certainly don't live large; mostly they need sponsors. I'm pretty sure there's a money angle.
Roy I'm sure there are stories about women/women sexual violence that we will learn about in the not to distant future. But I'm sure you're correct in believing that money and coverups go hand-in hand. That and the fact that there is a growing lack of moral fibre in our country as a whole.
Dan, men have been saying that they are sure that there are stories about women's sexual violence that we will learn about in the not-too-distant future forever. I think it's simply wishful thinking.
lately I've been shocked at the number of headlines of women committing sexual violence but when I read the full article, 99% of the time it is a male that who now calls themselves a woman.
Kristin, emotionally, I'm with you. But to demand that "Players credibly accused of serious misconduct need to be named and suspended" is wrong.
For the past decade (perhaps the "MeToo" decade) we have been confronted by accusations that, when a generous dollop of "credibility" is applied, could not only ruin an individual hockey career but derail a lifetime. Such ruin is easily evident.
Yes, hockey culture must change--but to provide quick determination of guilt. Our hockey system needs to act with determination and impatience on such accusations. When guilt--and only guilt--is determined, naming and suspension should be immediate.
Any system with an accusation of sexual assault should act with determination as quickly as possible. But the legal system is slow. Three different groups are investigating and everyone is waiting on the others to finish. There is confusion about some players cooperating at least part of the time with some of the investigations. It's been 4 years already. Far too long.
We agree, Lou. And I'm certain you didn't miss my final comment about "quick determination of guilt". Were Canada Hockey to step up to this, they'd find a way that would cut throught the crap now incumbering the formal legal process. What's missing, it seems, is the determination to make a timely and valid determination.
Exactly, a quick but thorough determination.
It seems that Hockey Can has been managing quite nicely by dancing around, delaying, possibly obstructing, and definitely paying to protect their players.
I think the "me too" movement helped a lot of people come forward. Especially if they were one of a number who was abused by one individual.
Mic asked why victims aren't reporting these crimes as they happen. I think the question still is why is it happening at all? One reason would be the guys at the top feel it's better to pay off the victim so their potential super-stars aren't distracted by anything as sordid as a rape charge. They don't see that they are as much a problem as the players.
Innocent until proven guilty. Trust but verify. The punishment MUST be swift and certain.
I call it the “front of the line” mentality. As an ex wife of a hockey player I had a birds eye view of this world. It is toxic and not a good thing for players, families or anyone else.
I'm not a hockey fan so I'm not emotionally invested in sheltering people working in this industry. In fact, some part of me would like to see this sacred cow tipped over
This crap occurs in all sports it seems, but it going on with Hockey Canada really hits Canadians hard. Hockey is one of the few things that bring Canadians together "from coast to coast to coast" and it's one of the few things we are actually the best in the world at. So of course Canadians want to protect the sanctity of our most popular sport and our national team program. It's of course misplaced passion and probably immoral in the grand scheme, but it is understandable.
That said, if we exhibited the same passion toward science, the arts and letters or perhaps business, this country would be more prosperous, less boring, more consequential and overall better off.
The sad part is that this nonsense is going to undercut our long term future as "the best in the world" at this sport. I won't put my kids into minor hockey at this point. Not only is it expensive (a huge problem, but a surmountable one)... it's toxic. I want my kids to be able to play hockey, because hockey rules and other than maybe baseball, it's the best "lifelong sport." But not at the expense of exposing them to the cesspool of minor hockey locker rooms. If enough parents are thinking along similar lines, Canada will start to drop off the hockey map.
If you are looking to put your kids in a lifelong sport, golf, swimming or even volleyball would serve well. They will thank you when they are older.
Let's hear it for soccer if looking for a team sport.
It isn't nonsense. If rape culture is to be a part of Hockey Canada then it damn well deserves to drop off of the hockey map.
Get them into golf. Best sport for lifelong participation -- but as expensive as hockey.
Golf is silly.
Them's fightin' words!
LOL!
Swimming, cross country running, tennis, curling, softball & cross country skiing are all highly competitive and lifelong sports.
Why does no one think this has to with the exploitation of young men who are sheltered from normal socialization and inculcated with illusions of greatness and being supra-human and protected by adults who know exactly what is going on?
Mostly that is in the parent's minds.
Well said. We used to have the CBC for art, culture and science. Not anymore.
There needs to be proof, before "I wish" all the players are painted with this very broad brush! This will follow them for the rest of their lives, and as seen before once the media decides, guilt is assumed
Seems like too many Dads think they’re Walter Gretzky & it’s okay for their kid to focus solely on hockey, to be sent away at a young age & to live in this dangerous culture.
Kristin - I agree with a lot of what you said but there are two points I'm going to push back on.
It's a fine line to suggest anyone in an alleged sexual assault should be suspended and outed and are guilty until proven innocent. Proceedings re: an assault can take months or years to weave their way through a civil or criminal investigations/courts and innocent people can be falsely accused. I see it this way as a dad who has both a daughter and a son. If my daughter was sexually assaulted I'd be furious. But if my son was accused and went through years of proceedings before being proclaimed innocent I'd be just as furious. So be careful what you wish for here because it could be someone you love who is falsely accused and have their reputations tattered.
2nd pushback:
Why are you lumping in Don Cherry and his "you people" incident with a story about sexual assaults/cover up by Hockey Canada, culture of entitlement and worship culture of players? False equivalent.
Don Cherry's statement was completely misinterpreted as a micro aggression or racist comment against visible minorities when in fact it was not. His choice of words was poor, but his point was a fair comment.
What's too bad is that he was one analyst who never pulled punches, much like Charles Barkley. We don't have enough of those in this world of political correctness and cancel culture.
It's too bad that he's not around. Guaranteed if all came to light while he was in the HNIC booth he would be eviscerating anyone involved in this. He wouldn't be the passive wimp among the hockey panels who are too afraid to rock the boat because they want to be buddy buddy with the players and coaches so they get access and keep their cozy jobs.
I completely agree with your first push-back.
But your 2nd misses the mark. Cherry has a long history of saying the completely wrong thing and McLean nodding along...always, so often that I think he never really listen to Cherry. It has nothing to do with being PC or with cancel culture, or if it does, good, damned well about time. Because Cherry says a thing does not make it good, right, the truth, or even useful. Three generations of hockey players we were all in agreement when Cherry got the boot.
Let's bring back Peter Puck with new and updated encouragement on and off the ice.
Maybe we should look at hockey as a TEAM sport not just individual players. It is a team and everyone works together. Learning to be a team player is helpful in all aspects of life.
I agree if there is abuse going on whether by coaches, players etc. it is a crime. Then punish accordingly and maybe people will think before abusing. No I don’t have my head in the sand. The big word is RESPECT. Respect is a two street. Our youngsters need to learn respect and adults need to respect the kids.
Also let’s take out all the “politics” in minor hockey and let kids have fun as they learn skills and team playing. I never was a hockey mom because minor hockey ruled your life.
Funny thing about all that worship - the NHL has been used as a proof of how much dumb luck is responsible for your success in life:
https://www.nhl.com/news/study-suggests-nhl-has-bias-in-favour-of-players-born-earlier-in-the-year/c-657724
...more than twice as many NHL draftees are born in Jan-Mar than are born in Oct-Dec: 36% vs 15%. Why? Well, when the little kids go into Mighty Mites, or whatever little league, some of them are just barely 8 years old, some "in the same year" are turning 9. The bigger kids in any school year are better athletes, so get extra praise, attention, success. This starts a feedback loop where they get cheered on in hockey, and sent to extra training camps, etc.
So, only partially do they get to commit rape with impunity because they're sports heroes: they also get to commit rape with impunity, because they were literally born lucky.
That explains a lot.
If a person is assaulted, they can report it to a police agency.
Assault, including sexual assault, is a crime in Canada.
The police are responsible for gathering evidence and laying charges against the suspect.
A crown prosecutor then determines if the is sufficient evidence to take the case to trial.
How has this process been pre-empted by professional sports organizations?
Have they been buying - off complainants?
Do they offer money to complainants to get them to drop charges?
Would this practise not be construed as an obstruction of justice?
Perhaps an example of how professional sports organizations prevent athletes from being tried for crimes they are alleged to have committed would help give this issue more clarity.
Much has peen reported about the ability of these sports organizations’ ability to circumvent our justice system - just how do they do it?
Its not just sport teams that do it but celebrities, politicians, and those with money. Look at the Jeffrey Epstien case. How many people that aided in the abuse were charged? Names came out but no one was brought up on charges and the ladies suing did not even mention names. Why? Because those who were guilty paid for silence. (non disclosure acts). We could start at the top and work our way down but the only thing separating Hockey Canada from the top is that they kept a paper trail. So they will be the ones hung out to dry.
Don't kid yourself. There was plenty of paper trails in the Epstein case. But the names on it were too powerful. As one wag put it, Maxwell was found guilty of human trafficking young girls to nobody.
I do agree tho it didn't turn out well for Epstein in the end.
It starts early on. Kids of single digit ages. Dad and often mom is in the stands screaming "drop your gloves!"-"hit him!" etc. I've seen kids standing there, looking utterly lost while the parents are going insane. Sure enough, soon enough, that kid is dropping his gloves. All the kids witness it even if their parents/family aren't on them about killing the other 7 or 8 year old. While this behavior occasionally hits the news, mostly it doesn't. It doesn't happen every game either but this scene and others like it happen all the time. I've seen dads outside of change rooms nose to nose shrieking, spittle and F bombs flying.
I'm not saying when assaults and especially sexual assaults happen the people responsible shouldn't be held responsible. I'd like any enablers to have pay in some way too but it's never cut and dried. Should that kid on the ice who dropped his gloves and hit the other kid be charged. Of course not. But that's where (in hockey anyway) it starts. In their teens they are out in the parking lot with the girlfriends watching as they fight the guy that tripped him and did or did not get a penalty.
Then if they are good enough they make some level of big time and dad is still in the stands screaming and life is good. Why should he expect actual rules to matter?
If they are not good enough they join a beer league and too often the same behaviour kicks in when their kids take to the ice. Seldom does anyone get charged.
Nothing here surprises me unfortunately. No one can say that violence on and off the ice is not a problem. What I find sad is that what caught everyone's attention is that they used the "National Equity Fund" to cover "expenses". Never mind the sexual assault. Sheldon Kennedy is correct. Hockey Canada's CEO etc. must resign, they must go. They are beyond dealing with toxic.
Kristin Raworth has the right of it other than that one sentence. And Jess Allen is owed an apology.
Oh yeah, it's the money.
I still don’t understand why these crimes are not reported to the appropriate authorities by the victims and pursued through the courts.
Canadian courts have become much more receptive and accommodating of those victims of sexual assault.
If such victims are allowing themselves to be bought off from pursuing perpetrators through the courts, they are simply enabling the practise.
If the focus of this debate is on the validity of sports organizations co-opting the justice system on behalf of their members, the nature of their interference should be highlighted - what victims have been paid to withhold or drop charges against such members by these sponsor organizations?
Can't you think of any reasons why assault (let's go with sex assault for now) isn't reported?
I agree, the courts are much more receptive than they were even a few decades ago, for the most part. While sexual assault is too often something a woman undergoes, men, especially younger men, are also in that number.
Variables abound but for a moment imagine a young woman, with her friends, are partying with the "team". They are all drinking and dancing and having a good time. Assorted drugs may be available. Somehow our girl is separated from her friends and next thing it's 8 big strong young men and her.
At first she is with only one guy but all of a sudden there are 2,3 and more. First bewilderment, then fear, moving on to panic. Supposing our young woman is a confident, reasonable person who we can be sure did not invite 8 guys to assault her but afterwards her confidence and sense of self is destroyed. Nothing like this has ever happened to her before. We don't know if one or more may have said something to her but probably something was said, if only "no one will believe you."
So it's later that night or early the next day and what is going through her mind? I've been raped by 8 guys, what if I am pregnant? How can I go to school/work? What if I tell the police and they do nothing? Rape kits are ignored. What is my mom/dad/boyfriend going to say? I'll tell my BFF but she was raped and he got off. Why did I go to that party? These and dozens of other thoughts are zooming around her head. She isn't thinking, I'll be a good citizen and report these guys and the Canadian justice system is there just for such a crime.
The reasons why these crimes are still not reported as often and as quickly as they should is because the victim or the parents are made to feel as if it were their fault. The police are not known as a bastion of sensitivity. Some lawyer for Hockey Canada rolls in and tells her she doesn't want to ruin these guys futures but if she was willing to look the other way her schooling would be covered, blah blah blah. After all, she was at the party, she was drunk, she isn't a virgin, she's over 18 (and whatever else is useful). And it works. By the way, sign this NDA. If you speak up we'll sue you and yours until the end of time.
If it was your daughter, what would you want her to do? If she did report it it to the appropriate authorities, would she be strong enough to withstand the fallout, would you?
The young woman who was assaulted by 8 players of the World Juniors team in 2018 is to be supported and commended for her courage for coming forward. The past four years must have been an incredible hell for her. We don't know the details, we don't really need to. But there is something seriously broken in Hockey Canada and maybe this is a step in the right direction. I could get into male privilege but I don't need to, do I?
Should one or all eight of these guys be charged and convicted, I am hoping they get more than, oh, community service, or a year or 3 in prison. The consequences of such crimes are not commensurate with the damage they do.
The scenario you present has historical precedent and that is why this issue has arisen.
My point is that if there is credible evidence that the course of justice was obstructed by any professional sports organization, they should be subject to prosecution.
If the young woman who was allegedly assaulted was offered money by such an organization to withhold her complaint, or evidence pertinent to the determination a crime was committed, then that organization should be liable to criminal prosecution as well as those who carried out the assault.
Young women now have far more awareness of their rights and courts that afford them credible recourse in the event they are sexually assaulted.
Assaults that have occurred in past are coming to light as well as the efforts taken by professional sports organizations to protect their members/employees from prosecution for the crimes they have been alleged to have committed.
What is missing from the debate is a specific case of how and by whom a sexual assault victim was paid or intimidated from laying charges against her assailant(s).
If credible action is to be taken to prevent the obstruction of justice by professional sports organizations, the individuals who facilitate the practise must be identified, charged and tried for their complicity.
The current blanket condemnation is not useful in determining just who has been responsible for dispensing funds to victims in order to buy their silence.
No, you said, "I still don’t understand why these crimes are not reported to the appropriate authorities by the victims and pursued through the courts."
What I wrote is not historical precedent. It happens every day, as it has forever. Generally, though, we don't hear about it unless someone shares the information with the press/media. Hockey Can has obviously been paying people off to the tune of millions over a matter of years. Yes, that is a huge piece of the problem.
If a rapist gets 3 years in prison, what should the CEO and board of a company get for hiding the crime? In this instance x 8. How many times have they covered for the players in the past? Any players? Firing is not good enough for these guys. While they did not assault someone directly, they condoned it, they enabled it.
So we are in agreement; the facilitators must be identified, charged and tried. What exactly is their crime? Fraud? How many counts? Who else was involved?
Sometimes it's not money. It could be a job, a better job, a title, or simply a threat.
Young women today do have more awareness of their rights, mostly, but they don't spend a lot of time thinking about it. The courts often afford them credible recourse, but not always. A young woman may not have the life experience to follow through with the police. As I said before, the police are an issue. Not all police, not all of the time, but still too often the survivor of a sexual assault is too traumatized, too fragile, too frightened, or too confused to explain clearly what she endured. Even to go to the police is a massive decision. What she may not know about the legal system, what she does know is how others in similar situations may have been treated.
She has been violated. Hurt to her core. Going after the team is one thing, going after HC probably didn't occur to her until a lawyer (probably) brought it up and convinced her to do so. We don't know what she was offered to keep her silence, do we? Again, too many variables.
HC stating that they have a plan to clean up the "toxic" culture is insulting. They nurtured the toxicity. The NFL is doing it too. Some young star is apparently in trouble for many sexual assaults. Old news but the old boy system protects/protected him.
What is so heartbreaking is that the story is not new. No one should pretend they are surprised or shocked. There isn't a woman on the planet who is. So it's not a debate, the information is available to those who are paying attention. Maybe not the details of this specific case but 4 years, 3 or 4 investigations will clear that up eventually. Why do our young men, our hockey, football, rock, whatever, stars behave in such a manner? Everything we hope to teach our children goes out of the window when they achieve some level of "stardom"?
This young woman has taken a lie detector test to confirm her credibility. It's not admissible in a court but her lawyers have released the information to combat the smears and innuendos from those who either don't believe her or don't want to. This is the reality of coming forward, at least a bit of it.
Again, she deserves respect, compassion, and understanding. Instead, she will be Twitter fodder, FB slams, doxing no doubt and whataboutisms.
Do you remember the 1st Ottawa Slut Walk in 2011? Ihttps://toronto.ctvnews.ca/slutwalk-organized-to-protest-officer-s-comments-1.626977
We still have a long way to go.
Yes, yes, yes and yes.
👏👏👏👏
So…done hearing about “toxic masculinity” by “victim” advocates. Want to fix this? Stop yapping and get involved in making it better.
And what would you suggest be done?
There’s lots that can be done. Having an outsider who knows nothing about the sport, suggest that someone who has a vendetta against hockey players - just cuz - should receive an apology- is asinine. It’s nothing more than yapping at the trees to make a headline and it’s tiresome. Lots of good commentary has already been made by female hockey commentators in the broadcast booth and elsewhere so why not listen to them? What the hell is this nonsense here? I hate sideswipes from the cheap seats.
I've been saying for years and years - athletes shouldn't talk, just play the game. And what's happened? They are more coached on media performance, they are more touted as young stars and their trades are nitpicked and nuanced on 24 hour, TSN programming. In turn, I have turned out pretty much everything to do with hockey, except the first few weeks of playoffs.
If I need a refresher on the most effective sports cliches young hockey stars have it covered. I don't hear any eloquence from hockey stars to be honest.
What's worse is that the sports "journalists" just put up with it. I don't how they sleep at night.
Sports journalism is the farm team for political journalism. If you can ignore one person being screwed, and still treat the violator "on the balance" as a hero, you can move up to doing the same to pols, who screw millions.
They work 110%, right?
My grandson learned all the words to "O Canada" before he learned to sing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star". He called it the hockey song. Yes my son is a big hockey fan, superstitions and all.
I always took that to mean "an accusation from somebody with no reputation for lying, lacking a major incentive to lie, and much to lose if they are lying". But, it turns out to be this term of art these days:
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/2018/10/13/what-does-credibly-accused-mean-6-things-to-know-about-texas-catholic-dioceses-sex-abuse-inquiry/
....and it means that the Catholic Church figures the accusations are not something they can ignore, they'll have to give up the priest in question; the NHL may be adopting the Catholic playbook on handling PR.
I must have missed the stories of female athletes committing crimes of violence and getting away with it, all covered up. Also the scandals in any sport that does not make large sums of money for people, who then have motives to cover up.
I mean, curling fans go wild for our heroes, like Brad Gushue, Val Sweeting, Rachel Homan; they get swarmed for autographs at The Briar; but I can't recall a curling scandal, at least nothing like this. It's only been possible to not have a day-job in curling for a decade or so, and they certainly don't live large; mostly they need sponsors. I'm pretty sure there's a money angle.
Roy I'm sure there are stories about women/women sexual violence that we will learn about in the not to distant future. But I'm sure you're correct in believing that money and coverups go hand-in hand. That and the fact that there is a growing lack of moral fibre in our country as a whole.
Dan, men have been saying that they are sure that there are stories about women's sexual violence that we will learn about in the not-too-distant future forever. I think it's simply wishful thinking.
I don't wish sexual violence on anyone. BTW woman on woman sexual violence is not unheard of. Are you inadvertently showing us your secret fantasy?
lately I've been shocked at the number of headlines of women committing sexual violence but when I read the full article, 99% of the time it is a male that who now calls themselves a woman.