I dont know much about war and military like others and my partner But this was a fascinating discussion. What an incredible man the General is. Matt you did a great job leading the discussion right where it should be. Thank you, I've learnt new information. And my own reflection on leadership and values.
Mark Hertling is terrific. As here, his appearances at The Bulwark are always clear and informative. He's undoubtedly correct that the machinery of NATO is continuing to function. The civil service continues to function, too, despite radical changes in government. Longstanding interpersonal relationships and inertia are great for structural stability. But I don't recall ever seeing a political rupture like this: Centrifugal forces, once established, also have momentum. Marriages can go through rough patches, held together by family, friends, children and the complexities of divorce and disentanglement; but when trust is fully broken, the fiercer the love the more intractable the hate.
One thing to think about. We've only gone through a year and a half. There are two and a half years to go, minimum. What are the odds that Trump settles down? What are the odds that America First disappears, or that NATO can assume a new MAGA figure will never emerge? Trump has already signalled that he still has his eyes on Greenland and can anyone say definitively that our north is off the table? Given the first year of Trump's second term, to and a half years is a frightening eternity.
I hesitate the write this, because I know there are lots in Canada who would use it as an excuse.
But, as the General alluded to, the US has no monotonically insisted on higher defense spending by its allies. In fact, the US has long had a deeply ambivalent attitude towards what it wanted out of its allies. Too little and they're useless, but too much and they have freedom of action without the US in a way that the US didn't necessarily want.
This has manifested itself in all sorts of ways, from the old joke that NATO's mission was to keep the Americans in, the Russians out and (relevant to my point) the Germans down, to friction between the US and France when it resisted integration into the alliance, to heavily encouraging purchase of US weapons instead of maintaining their own domestic industries. It's not an accident that no one can build a fighter jet without US parts.
While its simplistic to say that the US wanted to be in charge, and both set their budgets and encouraged everyone else to set theirs so that the US would naturally be in charge, it's not entirely false.
My point is that there's a lot more to it than just saying that everyone else was freeriding on the US. And that the security architecture that suggests that was developed first and foremost by the Americans in pursuit of their own interest. Enlightened self interest, perhaps. But still, with lots of US encouragement to get to where we are.
So while Canada should spend more on defense, and always should have - Canadians should understand this as first and foremost a matter of enhancing Canadian interests. Not what we owe to the Americans. In fact, a Canada that spent as much on defense as I, and I think most Line readers, would like have a lot more freedom of action in foreign and defense policy, and the Americans would not necessarily be in favor of that either.
Thank Matt. This interview gives me great hope that the world remains a place where the vast majority are good people who suffer with/from the antics of the vocal minority who bring loud foolishness and evil.
I'm so glad I hit the play button and listened to this. It reinforced my optimism that the Canada/US relationship, while currently under stress, is salvagable and cause for optimism, thanks in part to intelligent friends such as Gen Hertling. And as Matt alluded to, and as I believe, he is not a one off American, despite what the Elbozoes crowd would have you believe. Better times are ahead.
Matt, thoughts and prayers for your wife's recovery.
I’ve always enjoyed General Hertling as a reliable and knowledgeable pundit on tv and this was a great episode. Hope is on the horizon. Prayers to your wife Matt 🫂
Obviously it's purely coincidental, but this being released on the same day the POTUS threatens to commit genocide is darkly hilarious.
I dont know much about war and military like others and my partner But this was a fascinating discussion. What an incredible man the General is. Matt you did a great job leading the discussion right where it should be. Thank you, I've learnt new information. And my own reflection on leadership and values.
Mark Hertling is terrific. As here, his appearances at The Bulwark are always clear and informative. He's undoubtedly correct that the machinery of NATO is continuing to function. The civil service continues to function, too, despite radical changes in government. Longstanding interpersonal relationships and inertia are great for structural stability. But I don't recall ever seeing a political rupture like this: Centrifugal forces, once established, also have momentum. Marriages can go through rough patches, held together by family, friends, children and the complexities of divorce and disentanglement; but when trust is fully broken, the fiercer the love the more intractable the hate.
One thing to think about. We've only gone through a year and a half. There are two and a half years to go, minimum. What are the odds that Trump settles down? What are the odds that America First disappears, or that NATO can assume a new MAGA figure will never emerge? Trump has already signalled that he still has his eyes on Greenland and can anyone say definitively that our north is off the table? Given the first year of Trump's second term, to and a half years is a frightening eternity.
I really enjoy listening to General Hertling on The Bulwark and glad to see him talking to you here as well.
I hesitate the write this, because I know there are lots in Canada who would use it as an excuse.
But, as the General alluded to, the US has no monotonically insisted on higher defense spending by its allies. In fact, the US has long had a deeply ambivalent attitude towards what it wanted out of its allies. Too little and they're useless, but too much and they have freedom of action without the US in a way that the US didn't necessarily want.
This has manifested itself in all sorts of ways, from the old joke that NATO's mission was to keep the Americans in, the Russians out and (relevant to my point) the Germans down, to friction between the US and France when it resisted integration into the alliance, to heavily encouraging purchase of US weapons instead of maintaining their own domestic industries. It's not an accident that no one can build a fighter jet without US parts.
While its simplistic to say that the US wanted to be in charge, and both set their budgets and encouraged everyone else to set theirs so that the US would naturally be in charge, it's not entirely false.
My point is that there's a lot more to it than just saying that everyone else was freeriding on the US. And that the security architecture that suggests that was developed first and foremost by the Americans in pursuit of their own interest. Enlightened self interest, perhaps. But still, with lots of US encouragement to get to where we are.
So while Canada should spend more on defense, and always should have - Canadians should understand this as first and foremost a matter of enhancing Canadian interests. Not what we owe to the Americans. In fact, a Canada that spent as much on defense as I, and I think most Line readers, would like have a lot more freedom of action in foreign and defense policy, and the Americans would not necessarily be in favor of that either.
Thank Matt. This interview gives me great hope that the world remains a place where the vast majority are good people who suffer with/from the antics of the vocal minority who bring loud foolishness and evil.
I'm so glad I hit the play button and listened to this. It reinforced my optimism that the Canada/US relationship, while currently under stress, is salvagable and cause for optimism, thanks in part to intelligent friends such as Gen Hertling. And as Matt alluded to, and as I believe, he is not a one off American, despite what the Elbozoes crowd would have you believe. Better times are ahead.
Matt, thoughts and prayers for your wife's recovery.
Great conversation with Mark Hertling. Felt for you at the end.
A needed discussion.
Just got his book yesterday! Great interview. Thanks.
I’ve always enjoyed General Hertling as a reliable and knowledgeable pundit on tv and this was a great episode. Hope is on the horizon. Prayers to your wife Matt 🫂
An interesting podcast. Good to hear optimists converse. Thanks Matt