Ross is of course right when he heavily implies that Canadians are an underachieving people ill suited to go it alone in the 21st Century. The problem is, do Canadians have the gumption to admit it and change their ways? Or will the momentum of the times just swamp Canada?
One thing is for sure, our decision maker class needs to get its act together and lead from the top down before it is too late. They are quite lazy and gormless as a social class, perhaps they know they wouldn't hack it in a US led society?
Once the "elbows up" boomers are gone the conversation will get much more urgent. Millenials and younger have never experienced a Canada where the country was more prosperous than the US. 40% poorer per capita than the US is not sustainable no matter how many poorly designed and funded nanny state programs you throw at people.
I am watching this and am about halfway through, but there are some incorrect statements made.
The first is that religious belief in the US is rising, and according to Pew and Gallup, the opposite is true, with Gallup's latest survey (2025) showing it is down to below half, a 17 point drop in the last ten years. While it may seem that religiosity is increasing it isn't, what you are getting instead is the amount of commentary and news about religion is increasing.
Secondly, Douthat said "religion is true", as a concept sure, but is there an actual God, if you are claiming that, you have to prove that statement, not just make an assertion and leave it lying there.
Transgender rights, women's rights, gay rights are all religious issues. Douthat's whitewashing of the loss of these rights as minor show his hand as to minimizing "others" rights over those of religions.
Now we get to the Catholic Church, Douthat spends considerable time denigrating evangelical Christians, who may not consider Catholics as Christians, while ignoring the issues of his preferred religion and their issues. In Canada we have child abuse scandals, residential schools, and the denial of women's rights. The Catholic League recently had an editorial defending Megyn Kelly's defense of Epstein. The Catholic League argued that she was correct, it was not pedophilia because they weren't 8 years old. The reason behind defending her was because "only" 4% of the children abused were children, so the rest was clearly the fault of the gays.
In the US on social issues you have much more of a pick your own adventure ethic between states. If these rights are important to you move to the West Coast or Northeast. Similar to have Canada functions between provinces economically.
What if you are too poor to move, is it more of a suck it up buttercup attitude? Rights shouldn't be dependent on where you live in a country, rights should be rights.
Rights are created and defined by people. There is no ethereal rights organization protecting you.
As for moving, even the homeless and destitute manage to move. I truly think people who use that excuse just aren't trying or willing to sacrifice enough.
Wow! Half way through this podcast and Ross Douhat is so wise, nuanced, balanced . I wish I could be as articulate. I love him pointing out the excesses of the left against religion which these discussions usually ignore. His read on the Trump administration and Christianity’s influence, Roe vs. Wade, the historical perspective, so rich. I think I might buy his book!
Terrific discussion Jen you hit it out of the park with your choice of interviewees again. (Comments on toxicity aside). The picture of Christianity with all its nuances was way more accurate IMO than the monochrome black and white extremes so beloved by politicians.
As for joining the US there is no denying that it will happen whether it’s formalized or not. Canadians seem to be reacting like a 45 year old wife who sees a young 25 year old making eyes at her husband. Nevertheless Canada nominally holds a huge amount of natural resources which it inherited by luck as spoils of war from the British. But with its small population and inbred aversion to self protective violence (the Loyalists and French having both lost the wars which gave rise to Canada’s formation). Canada‘s claim to the resources that it can’t exploit itself is basically that of the dog in the manger of the bible or Aesop's fables. But the giant cattle that need the hay in the manger (US, PRC and Russia) could trample the dog in a heartbeat.
So for Canadians -IMO within the next generation - the choice of culture will be either Anglo-American, Chinese Communist or Russian whatever… The choice seems obvious to me. Having gone through the hoops of the US immigration system I will probably feel some resentment of millions of Canadians getting a free ride to calling themselves Americans. But regardless of other cultural characteristics, free rides seem to have become a Canadian tradition.
Cheers to you for having the nerve to discuss this topic. Even though given the current US situation makes the join for Canada unappealing. That will change. Joining the US is and always will be an option for all or some parts of Canada. So why not chew over some terms around the campfire.
Because it makes the rest of us consider ways to revoke your citizenship and deport you?
But leaving the hyperbole aside for a moment, because for those against the idea, (which is most of us), the idea is absolutely unacceptable and even taking it seriously for a moment causes serious problems. Remember, while Canadians sometimes like to pretend Canada is a virtuous post-national state, much of the world sees "send in the police or the army to crush the rebels" as a perfectly reasonable action for their own government. That's how seriously some people take destroying their country.
Keep in mind that people who actually want to join the US... they emigrate. (Or they're people with such crappy economic contributions that the US won't have them, so why on earth would anyone take them seriously?) The people who won't move house, but fantasize about being American... well their actions tell us a lot more clearly how much they actually care vs. how much they pretend to care.
You're always going to find some people in any country who want to separate from the national government. You're also going to find people in any country who think that given women the right to vote was a bad idea and should be repealed. That doesn't mean we entertain the idea.
The point of a discussion about such things to highlight exactly how stupid the idea is, exactly how it **will** be prevented and how to ostracize and shame the traitors.
And your flippant push to destroy our country highlights your lack of seriousness (and complete disregard for your fellow citizens). Ultimately, surely you must understand that If you hate Canada so much, you have the option of emigrating.
My fellow citizens who think that a holy cow, sick with foot and mouth disease and full of intestinal parasites, does not need immediate intensive cures, can easily move to Central Canada. Canada that you think you see has expired several years ago.
Totalitarian views? Hardly. I’d need to go a lot farther. Intolerant of efforts to break up my country? Sure. I’m a little more traditional and less transactional about citizenship, but I’m hardly into “service guarantees citizenship” territory.
And let’s be honest with ourselves. The country these “wexit” people prefer to Canada has a view of separatism that makes me look like Jacques Parizeau. The US fought the bloodiest war in its entire history to crush separatists.
Trying to become a US state to get away from my intolerance of separatism is like being upset at Al Bundy’s sexist attitudes about women… and therefore leaving him to move in with Ted Bundy.
Have a chat with Gen Alpha and it would make the nationalistic boomers uncomfortable very quickly. "What's the point?" needs an answer and it can't be "we take care of you like a child so you don't have to "
I would like to reassure Jen as she seems rather alarmed by “ spiritual armour “ . It is in reference to Ephesians 6:10-20 which essentially states that we are to stand in the full armour of God so we can take our stand against the devil’s schemes. We are reminded our struggle is NOT AGAINST flesh and blood but against ( a bunch of spiritual entities) and we are to stand in the day of evil with the belt of truth buckled around our waist, the breastplate of righteousness in place, the helmet of salvation on our head, the shoes of the gospel of, wait for it, PEACE on our feet. We are to take up the shield of faith, to extinguish the flaming arrows of the evil one, and grasp in our hands the sword of the spirit, which is the WORD of god and wield it well pushing Satan back, praying on all occasions and always praying for fellow believers.
It was interesting hearing Ross Douthat emphasize the Little Sisters of the Poor case with respect to Obamacare birth control mandates while downplaying things like the politicization of American white Evangelical churches. This is one of the toxic features of the current American political culture: each side tries to poke each other in the eye on culture war issues. The other side gets into power, seeks about redressing those grievances, and then turns a blind eye to partisans on *their own side* engaging in the same effort to exploit pain points for their opponents. Avenging the overreach of the Obama administration or the Biden administration excuses all sorts of sins for the American right; this has been mirrored when Biden targeted Trump actions or Obama went after Bush-era controversies.
The danger in Canada is that we're replicating the same toxic political culture and sliding down the same slippery slope. It's easy to play the game of each side blaming the other for starting it, and each side can recite a multitude of transgressions committed by the other. I'm more interested in who's going to *stop it*. There's got to be an advantage in being the grown-up, condemning the stupidity of the other side, and then getting on with the business of pragmatic government. In fact, we know there is because Canadian voters flocked to the barest hint of that approach when Carney became Liberal leader. I think we need to tell the rabid partisans enraptured with this game to shut up and sit in the corner for a long time out until they can be civil again.
Very interesting podcast. I enjoyed listening to a more nuanced view of Christianity than what we normally hear. Mr. Douthat is a marvellous speaker. So eloquent.
That said, I couldn’t help but laugh when Mr. Douthat stated that one of the benefits of Christianity is that it is true. He may think it true and a valid explanation of the world around us, but that does not make it so. He, of course, has no concrete evidence for his assertion. He just has belief. And, please, don’t tell me that I have belief too, just in the opposite.
Mr. Douthat and other religious figures are putting forth an explanation for the world around us. It is their responsibility to offer tangible evidence in support of their assertion. They have yet to be able to do this.
"Look - you gave this whole independent republic thing a good shot for a couple of centuries. We both know that you're struggling, though: the whole Civil War thing was pretty bad, but we hoped it was just a phase. Now you've had a series of losing wars, you're politically paralyzed, and poised on the precipice of a fiscal crisis. Why don't you just come home, let the King and the Westminster parliament run things for a while, and we'll talk about next steps when you're ready?"
Great podcast, but a tad embarrassing for the host. The guest was careful, considered and patient in the presentation of his views, but The Line host was either not listening or not understanding (* public service notice: agreement with the guest be not required, but listening and understanding be required *). This problem was particularly noticeable when the guest was in his “America is not the cartoon you imagine” mode, while the host’s rejoinders were more cartoonisms. Rather ironic given the self-congratulations of The Line hosts in the 28-Nov podcast re: seeing American more clearly than Americans. We need an outstandingly good version of The Line in this country … you’re trying, but you can do better.
Wishes can come true. Every podcast post on our website — the one you're currently on — has a transcript. You can find that button at the top right of the page, over the main image (in this case, of the two flags).
For me, not a chance.
Ross is of course right when he heavily implies that Canadians are an underachieving people ill suited to go it alone in the 21st Century. The problem is, do Canadians have the gumption to admit it and change their ways? Or will the momentum of the times just swamp Canada?
One thing is for sure, our decision maker class needs to get its act together and lead from the top down before it is too late. They are quite lazy and gormless as a social class, perhaps they know they wouldn't hack it in a US led society?
Once the "elbows up" boomers are gone the conversation will get much more urgent. Millenials and younger have never experienced a Canada where the country was more prosperous than the US. 40% poorer per capita than the US is not sustainable no matter how many poorly designed and funded nanny state programs you throw at people.
I am watching this and am about halfway through, but there are some incorrect statements made.
The first is that religious belief in the US is rising, and according to Pew and Gallup, the opposite is true, with Gallup's latest survey (2025) showing it is down to below half, a 17 point drop in the last ten years. While it may seem that religiosity is increasing it isn't, what you are getting instead is the amount of commentary and news about religion is increasing.
Secondly, Douthat said "religion is true", as a concept sure, but is there an actual God, if you are claiming that, you have to prove that statement, not just make an assertion and leave it lying there.
Transgender rights, women's rights, gay rights are all religious issues. Douthat's whitewashing of the loss of these rights as minor show his hand as to minimizing "others" rights over those of religions.
Now we get to the Catholic Church, Douthat spends considerable time denigrating evangelical Christians, who may not consider Catholics as Christians, while ignoring the issues of his preferred religion and their issues. In Canada we have child abuse scandals, residential schools, and the denial of women's rights. The Catholic League recently had an editorial defending Megyn Kelly's defense of Epstein. The Catholic League argued that she was correct, it was not pedophilia because they weren't 8 years old. The reason behind defending her was because "only" 4% of the children abused were children, so the rest was clearly the fault of the gays.
Ok, I'm done.
In the US on social issues you have much more of a pick your own adventure ethic between states. If these rights are important to you move to the West Coast or Northeast. Similar to have Canada functions between provinces economically.
What if you are too poor to move, is it more of a suck it up buttercup attitude? Rights shouldn't be dependent on where you live in a country, rights should be rights.
Rights in Canada depends upon your skin colour, gender identity and ethnic status.
Rights are created and defined by people. There is no ethereal rights organization protecting you.
As for moving, even the homeless and destitute manage to move. I truly think people who use that excuse just aren't trying or willing to sacrifice enough.
I stick with my original point, rights should be rights, no matter where you live in a country.
Wow! Half way through this podcast and Ross Douhat is so wise, nuanced, balanced . I wish I could be as articulate. I love him pointing out the excesses of the left against religion which these discussions usually ignore. His read on the Trump administration and Christianity’s influence, Roe vs. Wade, the historical perspective, so rich. I think I might buy his book!
Terrific discussion Jen you hit it out of the park with your choice of interviewees again. (Comments on toxicity aside). The picture of Christianity with all its nuances was way more accurate IMO than the monochrome black and white extremes so beloved by politicians.
As for joining the US there is no denying that it will happen whether it’s formalized or not. Canadians seem to be reacting like a 45 year old wife who sees a young 25 year old making eyes at her husband. Nevertheless Canada nominally holds a huge amount of natural resources which it inherited by luck as spoils of war from the British. But with its small population and inbred aversion to self protective violence (the Loyalists and French having both lost the wars which gave rise to Canada’s formation). Canada‘s claim to the resources that it can’t exploit itself is basically that of the dog in the manger of the bible or Aesop's fables. But the giant cattle that need the hay in the manger (US, PRC and Russia) could trample the dog in a heartbeat.
So for Canadians -IMO within the next generation - the choice of culture will be either Anglo-American, Chinese Communist or Russian whatever… The choice seems obvious to me. Having gone through the hoops of the US immigration system I will probably feel some resentment of millions of Canadians getting a free ride to calling themselves Americans. But regardless of other cultural characteristics, free rides seem to have become a Canadian tradition.
"Free" is a Canadians love language. Why do you think we have the Canada Health Act?
Cheers to you for having the nerve to discuss this topic. Even though given the current US situation makes the join for Canada unappealing. That will change. Joining the US is and always will be an option for all or some parts of Canada. So why not chew over some terms around the campfire.
Because it makes the rest of us consider ways to revoke your citizenship and deport you?
But leaving the hyperbole aside for a moment, because for those against the idea, (which is most of us), the idea is absolutely unacceptable and even taking it seriously for a moment causes serious problems. Remember, while Canadians sometimes like to pretend Canada is a virtuous post-national state, much of the world sees "send in the police or the army to crush the rebels" as a perfectly reasonable action for their own government. That's how seriously some people take destroying their country.
Keep in mind that people who actually want to join the US... they emigrate. (Or they're people with such crappy economic contributions that the US won't have them, so why on earth would anyone take them seriously?) The people who won't move house, but fantasize about being American... well their actions tell us a lot more clearly how much they actually care vs. how much they pretend to care.
You're always going to find some people in any country who want to separate from the national government. You're also going to find people in any country who think that given women the right to vote was a bad idea and should be repealed. That doesn't mean we entertain the idea.
The point of a discussion about such things to highlight exactly how stupid the idea is, exactly how it **will** be prevented and how to ostracize and shame the traitors.
Your totalitarian views highlights the usefulness of Wexit.
And your flippant push to destroy our country highlights your lack of seriousness (and complete disregard for your fellow citizens). Ultimately, surely you must understand that If you hate Canada so much, you have the option of emigrating.
My fellow citizens who think that a holy cow, sick with foot and mouth disease and full of intestinal parasites, does not need immediate intensive cures, can easily move to Central Canada. Canada that you think you see has expired several years ago.
Ridiculous and offensive "metaphor".
For the record, I was born and raised in Alberta. So stop with the foolish "Central Canada" hate mongering.
I will not, it is there where all sorts of problems for Canada keep arising.
Central Canada needs to stop with its endless Alberta/Western Canada hate mongering and denigration.
Bye.
Totalitarian views? Hardly. I’d need to go a lot farther. Intolerant of efforts to break up my country? Sure. I’m a little more traditional and less transactional about citizenship, but I’m hardly into “service guarantees citizenship” territory.
And let’s be honest with ourselves. The country these “wexit” people prefer to Canada has a view of separatism that makes me look like Jacques Parizeau. The US fought the bloodiest war in its entire history to crush separatists.
Trying to become a US state to get away from my intolerance of separatism is like being upset at Al Bundy’s sexist attitudes about women… and therefore leaving him to move in with Ted Bundy.
Have a chat with Gen Alpha and it would make the nationalistic boomers uncomfortable very quickly. "What's the point?" needs an answer and it can't be "we take care of you like a child so you don't have to "
I would like to reassure Jen as she seems rather alarmed by “ spiritual armour “ . It is in reference to Ephesians 6:10-20 which essentially states that we are to stand in the full armour of God so we can take our stand against the devil’s schemes. We are reminded our struggle is NOT AGAINST flesh and blood but against ( a bunch of spiritual entities) and we are to stand in the day of evil with the belt of truth buckled around our waist, the breastplate of righteousness in place, the helmet of salvation on our head, the shoes of the gospel of, wait for it, PEACE on our feet. We are to take up the shield of faith, to extinguish the flaming arrows of the evil one, and grasp in our hands the sword of the spirit, which is the WORD of god and wield it well pushing Satan back, praying on all occasions and always praying for fellow believers.
Why on earth is that threatening?
It was interesting hearing Ross Douthat emphasize the Little Sisters of the Poor case with respect to Obamacare birth control mandates while downplaying things like the politicization of American white Evangelical churches. This is one of the toxic features of the current American political culture: each side tries to poke each other in the eye on culture war issues. The other side gets into power, seeks about redressing those grievances, and then turns a blind eye to partisans on *their own side* engaging in the same effort to exploit pain points for their opponents. Avenging the overreach of the Obama administration or the Biden administration excuses all sorts of sins for the American right; this has been mirrored when Biden targeted Trump actions or Obama went after Bush-era controversies.
The danger in Canada is that we're replicating the same toxic political culture and sliding down the same slippery slope. It's easy to play the game of each side blaming the other for starting it, and each side can recite a multitude of transgressions committed by the other. I'm more interested in who's going to *stop it*. There's got to be an advantage in being the grown-up, condemning the stupidity of the other side, and then getting on with the business of pragmatic government. In fact, we know there is because Canadian voters flocked to the barest hint of that approach when Carney became Liberal leader. I think we need to tell the rabid partisans enraptured with this game to shut up and sit in the corner for a long time out until they can be civil again.
Very interesting podcast. I enjoyed listening to a more nuanced view of Christianity than what we normally hear. Mr. Douthat is a marvellous speaker. So eloquent.
That said, I couldn’t help but laugh when Mr. Douthat stated that one of the benefits of Christianity is that it is true. He may think it true and a valid explanation of the world around us, but that does not make it so. He, of course, has no concrete evidence for his assertion. He just has belief. And, please, don’t tell me that I have belief too, just in the opposite.
Mr. Douthat and other religious figures are putting forth an explanation for the world around us. It is their responsibility to offer tangible evidence in support of their assertion. They have yet to be able to do this.
The two common denominators of all religions, past or present, is their complete lack of proof and self-righteousness.
No thanks.
Why don’t the US join us? Then they can have a real king vice the orange fart joke they have now!!😀
"Look - you gave this whole independent republic thing a good shot for a couple of centuries. We both know that you're struggling, though: the whole Civil War thing was pretty bad, but we hoped it was just a phase. Now you've had a series of losing wars, you're politically paralyzed, and poised on the precipice of a fiscal crisis. Why don't you just come home, let the King and the Westminster parliament run things for a while, and we'll talk about next steps when you're ready?"
Great podcast, but a tad embarrassing for the host. The guest was careful, considered and patient in the presentation of his views, but The Line host was either not listening or not understanding (* public service notice: agreement with the guest be not required, but listening and understanding be required *). This problem was particularly noticeable when the guest was in his “America is not the cartoon you imagine” mode, while the host’s rejoinders were more cartoonisms. Rather ironic given the self-congratulations of The Line hosts in the 28-Nov podcast re: seeing American more clearly than Americans. We need an outstandingly good version of The Line in this country … you’re trying, but you can do better.
Interesting Conversation
I wish you had a written summary of these podcasts
Wishes can come true. Every podcast post on our website — the one you're currently on — has a transcript. You can find that button at the top right of the page, over the main image (in this case, of the two flags).