Everyone I interviewed wanted to support Ukrainians in their fight for freedom, they just wanted to send things that would be useful instead of accidentally dangerous.
Ukraine is losing this war and western support. They are desperate for anything that might help them turn the tide and would take sling shots if that's all we could give them. We are an embarrassment as a NATO member.
Someone who knows the industry enough that this author in particular is one of the foremost experts in Canada on this topic. I have zero doubt of his interpretation of the condition of these rockets and that he reached out to the experts in their field
It's actually shameful for Canada that we are even having this conversation about giving Ukraine our trash.
Ukraine isn't a toxic dump for Canada to dispose of it's outstanding environmental liabilities, it is a first world nation that should dispose of it's garbage property.
I suspect there is a defence contractor that would love to have a sole sourced contract to inspect each of the 83,303 rocket motors, remove and dispose the asbestos, dispose the dangerous solid fuel failed motors (most of them), repack the rockets for shipment, sell the Ukrainians warheads and all the training and maintenance contracts that go along with it, all at a huge defence industry markup that would even make a dairy farmer blush. That would cost at least 2-3x more than just buying brand new equivalent rockets in Europe, and those would arrive quicker as well. Anyone who knows the Canadian defence scene even remotely suspects who would get this contract.
Sometimes those that insist on helping end up hurting those who they want to help, this is an example.
Seems to me, the more relevant question here is not how much useful Canadian ammunition is available to give to Ukraine, but how much useful Canadian ammunition is available for Canada. What can be given to Ukraine if Canada doesn't have much for itself in the first place?
Canada is dangerously short of small arms ammunition supply. We need a few more ammo component plants yesterday. Right now we are dependant on the US for primers and powder.
Yes, this little effort seems misguided at day's end. Confusion is significant as to what even we have to offer with these munitions - there is supposed to be a supply system that keeps track of these things so I cannot imagine that DND is unaware of the exact number, particularly given that the objects in question are munitions. Pencils we can lose; ammo we must not.
More alarming, frankly, is the absence of orders to replace the equipment and munitions we have sent to Ukraine. We've emptied our magazines of artillery shells and shipped over what we have, along with artillery pieces and other such gear, and I have been led to believe that orders to replace them have yet to be issued. Our defence industry infrastructure is grossly inadequate and would benefit from a steady order book - the need exists and those orders should be in place.
Our defence procurement is beyond inadequate. Now we have Ukraine scrabbling for obsolete and grossly expired junk munitions given our, and others, inability to supply what is needed.
In marginally related news, the PM has made brave noises about '...must do better...' in terms of bolstering our beleaguered DND while visiting Poland after more empty promises to Ukraine while there last week. He doesn't have to do much to indeed 'do better'.
So it’s been said historically that war can bring prosperity. Do you think this is an opportunity for Canada to step up military production? Jobs, etc. Touchy subject, I know. But putin, xi, and kim jong un have changed the game. We can be pro-active or passive.
The Great Depression ended in Canada and the US due to the Second World War spending - it laid the foundations for the prosperity of the 1950s and 1960s. So, certainly defence spending can provide an economic boost. However, I doubt it would make a huge difference to our GDP - our economy is much larger than it was back in the day and, in this case, munitions manufacturing would not require vast expansion of capacity (though some is needed - we don't live in a happy world these days).
We're militarily irrelevant......and have been for years. Clearly, no one with political power in Canada has cared about this for years...maybe decades. The bigger danger for Ukraine....and democracy as a whole, lies to our south.
Although I am not fan of our politicians, if it comes to light that they should take the blame for this offer I will have to cut them some slack.
Our politicians have, for many years and through various governments, neglected the military and defense. They have been instrumental in screwing up procurement through insisting on local content and by favouring their local or provincial constituencies. They have completely neglected to fund the military and encourage citizens to join. The reason? Simply put its the voter. Those who want boutique tax credits and free dental, free schooling and free baby sitting. Every one of these bureaucracies, IMO, funnel cash away from the job governments are supposed to do, and they get rewarded for their incompetency every time someone ticks the box next to their name.
Yes. But we’re not the only country to slack off on military spending after the fall of the Soviet Union and Berlin Wall. The present times were not foreseen, it was a time of optimism. I’m not optimistic that the slow-moving inertia of the Trudeau government will be able to pivot quickly enough to meet our 21st century needs and priorities.
This is like the eager beaver (sic) who offers to go get everybody coffees, and then screws up the orders, doesn't bring cream or sweetener, and then spills it all over the place in the elevator.
This isn't an isolated example of people expending energy on trying to get obsolete or unusable military gear sent to Ukraine in a misguided effort to help. There's been a similar effort to get Australia to donate its retired F/A-18A fighter aircraft, notwithstanding the fact that the aircraft are worn out and largely unserviceable at this point. The Ukrainians themselves have been getting smarter about what they'll accept as well: large donations of retired Leopard 1 tanks from European nations were found to be nearly non-functional when delivered, requiring significant effort to get running again, and Ukraine refused to accept some of these batches. The value of these tanks was kind of marginal to begin with - they represent 1960s technology that was considered obsolete by the early '80s.
How is it that Ukraine knows, in detail, what we have mothballed? I'm guessing this has something to do with Trudeau wishing to look the hero and trying to up the NATO contribution. Or, as someone else suggested, the employment of several Trudeau-friendly Canadian entities to make them gift-ready. Nothing and no one in the Liberal/NDP government can be trusted to speak the truth.
Seems to me that Ukraine is really desperate if they are asking for expired munitions. That aside here are my questions - how do THEY know that we have this pile of scrap (in boxes apparently) sitting in a warehouse and, presumably, available for use? Apparently our government and military either forgot the stuff was in storage or are waiting for scrap prices to go up in order to cash in.
How the heck have me managed to have this scrap material stockpiled for that many years with no action taken to destroy it? I understand stockpiling old military equipment just in case you need a fender or bumper or steering wheel but rocket motors????? The mind boggles with the lunacy of the situation
Next, how in the world were the proper storage conditions not set up for what is no doubt expensive military hardware? Granted, our vehicles are outside all them time but they were designed for that but the TV and varous kitchen appliances are inside because ... they need to be climate controlled!
I guess I shouldn't be surprised with this when I read that residents of British Columbia are told to refer to themselves as 'residents of BC' so as not to trigger natives or recent immigrants to the province. Just shows where our priorities lay I suppose.
The fact the Cold War ended is not relevant regarding the keeping of a fully functional and fully provisioned military. Why? Because, human nature and history. Also, “because they didn’t either” does not have any moral standing as an excuse. We quit because defence does not get votes.
Ukraine is losing this war and western support. They are desperate for anything that might help them turn the tide and would take sling shots if that's all we could give them. We are an embarrassment as a NATO member.
This statement is so "misguided" in the modern warfare context it hurts.
That's the problem when those who aren't educated in the art and science of modern warfare think their opinion is just as valid as the experts.
and you are? So enlighten us oh ye expert.
Someone who knows the industry enough that this author in particular is one of the foremost experts in Canada on this topic. I have zero doubt of his interpretation of the condition of these rockets and that he reached out to the experts in their field
SERIOUSLY impressed with how the Ukrainian tech and engineering underground has managed to optimize whatever they get.
Sigh.
More Canadian incompetence.
Quelle surprise.
Thanks to The Line for exposing Canada unloading their dangerous junk munitions on Ukraine.
What a collosal embarassment.
LOL
It's actually shameful for Canada that we are even having this conversation about giving Ukraine our trash.
Ukraine isn't a toxic dump for Canada to dispose of it's outstanding environmental liabilities, it is a first world nation that should dispose of it's garbage property.
I suspect there is a defence contractor that would love to have a sole sourced contract to inspect each of the 83,303 rocket motors, remove and dispose the asbestos, dispose the dangerous solid fuel failed motors (most of them), repack the rockets for shipment, sell the Ukrainians warheads and all the training and maintenance contracts that go along with it, all at a huge defence industry markup that would even make a dairy farmer blush. That would cost at least 2-3x more than just buying brand new equivalent rockets in Europe, and those would arrive quicker as well. Anyone who knows the Canadian defence scene even remotely suspects who would get this contract.
Sometimes those that insist on helping end up hurting those who they want to help, this is an example.
Seems to me, the more relevant question here is not how much useful Canadian ammunition is available to give to Ukraine, but how much useful Canadian ammunition is available for Canada. What can be given to Ukraine if Canada doesn't have much for itself in the first place?
Canada is dangerously short of small arms ammunition supply. We need a few more ammo component plants yesterday. Right now we are dependant on the US for primers and powder.
Not like we are using any at the moment either way.
Yes, this little effort seems misguided at day's end. Confusion is significant as to what even we have to offer with these munitions - there is supposed to be a supply system that keeps track of these things so I cannot imagine that DND is unaware of the exact number, particularly given that the objects in question are munitions. Pencils we can lose; ammo we must not.
More alarming, frankly, is the absence of orders to replace the equipment and munitions we have sent to Ukraine. We've emptied our magazines of artillery shells and shipped over what we have, along with artillery pieces and other such gear, and I have been led to believe that orders to replace them have yet to be issued. Our defence industry infrastructure is grossly inadequate and would benefit from a steady order book - the need exists and those orders should be in place.
Our defence procurement is beyond inadequate. Now we have Ukraine scrabbling for obsolete and grossly expired junk munitions given our, and others, inability to supply what is needed.
In marginally related news, the PM has made brave noises about '...must do better...' in terms of bolstering our beleaguered DND while visiting Poland after more empty promises to Ukraine while there last week. He doesn't have to do much to indeed 'do better'.
So it’s been said historically that war can bring prosperity. Do you think this is an opportunity for Canada to step up military production? Jobs, etc. Touchy subject, I know. But putin, xi, and kim jong un have changed the game. We can be pro-active or passive.
The Great Depression ended in Canada and the US due to the Second World War spending - it laid the foundations for the prosperity of the 1950s and 1960s. So, certainly defence spending can provide an economic boost. However, I doubt it would make a huge difference to our GDP - our economy is much larger than it was back in the day and, in this case, munitions manufacturing would not require vast expansion of capacity (though some is needed - we don't live in a happy world these days).
We're militarily irrelevant......and have been for years. Clearly, no one with political power in Canada has cared about this for years...maybe decades. The bigger danger for Ukraine....and democracy as a whole, lies to our south.
Although I am not fan of our politicians, if it comes to light that they should take the blame for this offer I will have to cut them some slack.
Our politicians have, for many years and through various governments, neglected the military and defense. They have been instrumental in screwing up procurement through insisting on local content and by favouring their local or provincial constituencies. They have completely neglected to fund the military and encourage citizens to join. The reason? Simply put its the voter. Those who want boutique tax credits and free dental, free schooling and free baby sitting. Every one of these bureaucracies, IMO, funnel cash away from the job governments are supposed to do, and they get rewarded for their incompetency every time someone ticks the box next to their name.
Yes. But we’re not the only country to slack off on military spending after the fall of the Soviet Union and Berlin Wall. The present times were not foreseen, it was a time of optimism. I’m not optimistic that the slow-moving inertia of the Trudeau government will be able to pivot quickly enough to meet our 21st century needs and priorities.
This is like the eager beaver (sic) who offers to go get everybody coffees, and then screws up the orders, doesn't bring cream or sweetener, and then spills it all over the place in the elevator.
Our ability at convening is only surpassed by our ability to fob off unneeded stuff. Both make good photo ops.
This isn't an isolated example of people expending energy on trying to get obsolete or unusable military gear sent to Ukraine in a misguided effort to help. There's been a similar effort to get Australia to donate its retired F/A-18A fighter aircraft, notwithstanding the fact that the aircraft are worn out and largely unserviceable at this point. The Ukrainians themselves have been getting smarter about what they'll accept as well: large donations of retired Leopard 1 tanks from European nations were found to be nearly non-functional when delivered, requiring significant effort to get running again, and Ukraine refused to accept some of these batches. The value of these tanks was kind of marginal to begin with - they represent 1960s technology that was considered obsolete by the early '80s.
How is it that Ukraine knows, in detail, what we have mothballed? I'm guessing this has something to do with Trudeau wishing to look the hero and trying to up the NATO contribution. Or, as someone else suggested, the employment of several Trudeau-friendly Canadian entities to make them gift-ready. Nothing and no one in the Liberal/NDP government can be trusted to speak the truth.
Seems to me that Ukraine is really desperate if they are asking for expired munitions. That aside here are my questions - how do THEY know that we have this pile of scrap (in boxes apparently) sitting in a warehouse and, presumably, available for use? Apparently our government and military either forgot the stuff was in storage or are waiting for scrap prices to go up in order to cash in.
How the heck have me managed to have this scrap material stockpiled for that many years with no action taken to destroy it? I understand stockpiling old military equipment just in case you need a fender or bumper or steering wheel but rocket motors????? The mind boggles with the lunacy of the situation
Next, how in the world were the proper storage conditions not set up for what is no doubt expensive military hardware? Granted, our vehicles are outside all them time but they were designed for that but the TV and varous kitchen appliances are inside because ... they need to be climate controlled!
I guess I shouldn't be surprised with this when I read that residents of British Columbia are told to refer to themselves as 'residents of BC' so as not to trigger natives or recent immigrants to the province. Just shows where our priorities lay I suppose.
The fact the Cold War ended is not relevant regarding the keeping of a fully functional and fully provisioned military. Why? Because, human nature and history. Also, “because they didn’t either” does not have any moral standing as an excuse. We quit because defence does not get votes.
This is serious rocket science, not some high school experiment.