In any sort of protest movement there is going to be all manner of behaviour that is found to be objectionable by some, and laudible by others. For my part, I'm in broad agreement with Dan McCarthy that military monuments ought to be treated with respect, and there are certain standards of conduct, decorum, and civil discourse that ought to be respected in their presence. Call me old-fashioned, but I was brought up with such values. My time in the military reinforced them.
But, with all respect, Mr. McCarthy has missed the point here - the point is not that this particular protest movement is misbehaving against norms of civility that were present mere decades ago. Rather, the point is that this particular protest movement exists, and we ought to be asking ourselves, "Why?" Why is it that there is such an apparently large and vocal group of people in our society for whom Mr. McCarthy's norms apparently no longer apply? Why are so many people defying authority to express their outrage in ways that would have been considered unthinkable even 10 or 20 years ago?
Canadian institutions are not "under unprecedented attack." Rather, Canadian institutions have been neglected and have atrophied. Perhaps this is because of a conspiracy of elites to create a "post national" Canadian identity (as the tinfoil-hat camp might suggest), or perhaps it's the result of all of us taking our eye off the ball during a long period when our institutions really didn't need much strength anymore. What's the underlying cause here?
In any event, here we are. Canadians of our present not behaving like the Canadians of our youth. Let's not point fingers at bad behaviour - instead, let's try and understand it.
Because the idea of legally discriminating against a group of Canadians, firing them from their jobs, and banning them from travel would also have been unthinkable 10 or 20 years ago. Our rights are under unprecedented attack
We didn't have a pandemic 10 or 20 years ago. Something you continue to ignore in your daily briefing on the rights of people to share the worst health calamity in a century with as many people as possible. You constantly deny the damage done to our healthcare systems and their ability to provide even emergency services because they were overwhelmed with COVID patients. You ignore that virtually every other nation on earth imposed restrictions of some kind, and the one to our south that thought it would "magically disappear" leads the world in deaths to date. Pretending your house isn't on fire doesn't stop it from burning down. Your insistence on completely ignoring the concept of social responsibility is a large part of why we have whining protests like this.
All that past stuff is literally irrelevant to the protest and my comment.
We all know that banning people from travel is a serious violation of our charter rights (and that no other democratic country is banning its own citizens from travel).
We all know that the vaccines do nothing (at best) to reduce infection or transmission.
Therefore, we all know that the travel ban is a serious and totally unjustified violation of our charter rights by discriminating against a group of people. This is unprecedented in Canada since at least when they signed the Charter. Why do you keep bringing in irrelevant red herrings?
Travel isn't guaranteed under the Charter. You can live where you want, and work where you want. Travelling around for fun is not protected.
We know that vaccines make a huge difference in severe outcomes, which impact the function of the healthcare system for everyone.
Case counts in Ontario are irrelevant since testing is only being done for those in healthcare. Every single news report states that case counts are inaccurate due to a lack of testing.
Actually, the right to leave Canada is literally guaranteed. Saying "you can leave to one place that won't have you, but not to anywhere else" violates it. Saying "you can leave, but only if you can afford a private jet" also violates it.
By introducing hospitalization, are you admitting that vaccines don't reduce transmission?
If case counts are irrelevant, how do you know there is a pandemic at all? If case counts are understated by a factor of 10, then Covid is less dangerous than a cold, so how do you justify violating people's rights in an attempt to prevent it?
You are starting from a conclusion (that people should be forced to take the shot regardless of whether there is any material benefit) and working backward to try to rationalize it.
Well, for 18 months you could go nowhere because no one would allow you in. The government also passed several laws allowing them to do what they did. As I've said many times, pretending things are normal in a pandemic is absurd. https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/covid.html
With Omicron, I'm not sure. Since there's so little testing going on right now, I'm not sure anyone has a clear picture. But in the previous variants, yes, I'm saying that. Note from your own source page, 25% of people in ICU's are unvaccinated; they're 10% of the population.
I'm not an epidemiologist, but I do know that 38000 people have died of COVID in the last two years. People are still dying of it daily. Yes, there are ebbs and flows; likely coming back in the fall when indoor activities increase. How do I know there's a pandemic? Because the Ontario Science Table says it's not over but is becoming endemic. I generally take medical advice from the best experts I can find. Dr Brown has been superb, Anyway, at that point, I expect restrictions will drop further and you'll be free to leave the country. It will probably happen fairly soon. However, air travel will remain a nightmare for several months as there is no staff for any of the professions so expect it to suck for a long time.
Thee are no polite words I can use to express my contempt for your question about whether there is still a pandemic. It is literally too stupid to respond to. It is well reported and evident that vaccination made you 30 times less likely to be hospitalised and 80 times less likely to end up in the ICU with the early variants. Current data with a third dose has slightly less effective results with Omicron. Hospital counts confirm that reality to this day. I don't need to rationalise anything as the data is on my side....as it has been since we began this debate months ago. You used the same data in your post today. They're now publishing death statistics by vaccination status. I've included them for your interest. You'll note that at all times, the unvaccinated have the highest mortality. The vaccine is a miracle, but it can't stop you from dying. But it sure seems to help delay it. https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/case-numbers-and-spread
So no, I don't think anyone's rights have been violated because the good of the country was put ahead of your personal wants. If you wanted to travel, you had that option. You chose not to take it. You made your decision, and you live with its consequences...like every other decision you make every day. I suspect I'll be long dead before Rocco Galati's lawsuit makes a shred of headway...assuming he's still pursuing it.
Mark Ch, I clicked on your link and it seems to show vaccinated individuals make up twice as many cases than the unvaccinated. Is this your proof? Since the vast majority are vaccinated this shows the opposite of what you think it does.
Look again. It shows the rate per 100,000 people with that vax status.
"Rate per 100,000 (7-day average) is the average rate of COVID-19 cases per 100,000 for each vaccination status for the previous 7 days as noted. Rate of COVID-19 cases per 100,000 is calculated by dividing the number of cases for a vaccination status, by the total number of people with the same vaccination status, and then multiplying by 100,000."
I can travel unvaxxed to many countries now, if only I could escape Canada. Obviously they don't need to honour my Charter rights - only Canada need do that. The countries that I can travel to aren't honouring any rights - only common sense and actual science, unlike Canada.
My sense of these protests is they are a symptom of a larger problem. We've moved from thinking of ourselves as citizens -- as people with some shared interests worth defending --- to thinking of ourselves as consumers -- individuals looking to maximise their own self-interests.
You see it reflected in elections, where serious talk of policy is evaoporating and campaigns are becoming targeted marketing campaigns -- suburbian Moms get this tax credit; Gen Z gets this tuition subsidy; whoever you are, they've got a deal for you!
A consumer mindset, nurtured by a lifetime of influence by consumer marketing and advertising, is essentially one of entilement. That's seemed to spill over in the public realm. What's the government going to do for me? My problems are most important! What isn't somebody solving them? We laugh and mock the "Karens" online, but it feels like that sense of entitlement has permeated most of the culture.
I fear that this culture is an unavoidable result of decades of relatively good times. I'm 55. I've never had to fight in a war. I've never been truly poor or hungry or feared for my security. These are all fantastic things, and they are true for a lot of Canadians. But, I can see how one can start to take our lot in life for granted; to be convinced that we should have even more! That very little should be asked of any of us, but we should receive endless, ever growing bounty.
I hope I'm wrong. Canada faces a bunch of collective challenges. We have an economy that isn't productive enough, especially compared to peer nations, and we don't really know how to address this. Climate change is going to remake entire industries and we don't really have a fulsome plan, yet. We're a small power who had relied on a post-WW2 world order that's rapidly changing, and it's not clear what comes next or whether we can adapt. We've concentrated a lot of our wealth into fewer hands, which probably isn't helping the productivity issue and is among the root causes of reduced social cohesion as well.
My gut is that if we solve these big, collective challenges, the short-term, "on the news" problems -- the pandemic, high housing prices, inflation -- all become more managable. But, we're getting caught in this cycle of outrage -- of spending all our energy on emotional, short-term issues while avoiding the (somewhat boring) patient work of solving the broader (but also shared) challenges.
All of which to say -- I agree with a lot of this proposal, but it's one of those relatively short-term, emotional issues that I worry distract us. No issue with changing the way the memorial is managed or how future protests are handled there. But, no offense intended, it feels like a relatively minor (but incredibly emotional) part of the broader story.
Where were you when the Sir John Macdonald statue was being removed from Victoria City Hall? How about when the statue of Cook was thrown into Victoria harbour? Where were you when the proper name was removed from Langevin Block? I am glad you decided to draw a line in the sand at the War Memorial, but honestly, this kind of crap has been going on for awhile now and I find it terribly rich that the hot air and talking heads all come out in force for a rally or event they don't support politically, but keep their big mouths shut when it something progressive, or woke. Shame. You have an affinity for monuments and statues and you are a Liberal. What a joke.
Was I pleased with the decapitation of Sir John A in Montreal - no. But I wasn’t there. Check out a February article I wrote in OttawaLife on the Maple Leaf for some previous commentary. As to being a Liberal, I’m proud of the work I did in the Chrétien-Martin governments. I have no affiliation with the current government. As to your “big mouth” comment, my thoughts obviously gave you something to do this morning. Other than calling me a joke, I do appreciate your comments.
That wasn't the point of my criticism. The point is that I feel Mr. McCarthy is disingenuous when he cries foul for protests taking place at the War Memorial but remains utterly silent when similar and even more violent mobs take places elsewhere throughout the country, even in his own backyard. I blame the government he worked with for a lot of these problems, because they have stoked the division and fear through this exact sort of template. Attack those who you are not politically aligned with and use reasons that are not applied equally to everyone.
I do not even care anymore. Each and every day in Canada I feel more and more like how Cato the Younger must have felt in the ancient Roman republic when everyone turned into a hypocrite and lied and trampled all over their ideals. It is not a matter of conservative or liberal or woke or progressive, it is beyond politics, it is about decency in comportment, honesty in approach and calling a spade a spade. This spade is broken, this spade is trying to pull a fast one of us hugging a statue in the name of putting down political opponents he refuses to understand, while attempted to rouse a segment of the population into opposing them as well for a reason far removed from the truth and reality of the situation.
You’re right - it is about decency and comportment, particularly on a site such as the National War Memorial. There were little of those attributes on display last Saturday. And that’s my point.
Tricky subject. The Canadian Armed Forces - like any honorable armed forces - has plenty of dishonourable actions that deserve shame and contempt. So, whose to decide what’s appropriate or not, someone whose kin has likely only been benefited by CAF?
Picking one thing (military service) to elevate above all others seems closer philosophically to jingoistic war mongering than a sensible take on free expression in a democracy.
Were the folks the author describes classless assholes? I guess. Is that an important input to an important decision? Not obvious to me.
Sticking to the topic of classy behavior, the author would do well to remember that our Prime Minister grew up the son of a PM and still can’t remember just how many times he decided to black up. Why, pray tell, is Jr’s behavior any less contemptible than tomb dancers?
They could have gathered on the lawn of parliament hill, wouldn't have made a difference for Mr. McCarthy, he doesn't support them, doesn't understand them just like the government he works for, so they are offensive and shouldn't be allowed to gather. The War Memorial is what we call a red herring, just pure luck that gives him just enough motivation to spill ink and just enough blood from the bleeding hearts across this country who wake up when something happens to a war memorial to write this bold piece of garbage up and share it on here. I didn't hear a peep from his man as statue after statue was being torn down across the country during violent mobs passing as peaceful protests, but oh flags that say F-Trudeau at the War Memorial, whoa whoa too much man, I like statues.
The statues are just bronze and stone. It’s the national memory and history that they embody that is important. And as mentioned earlier, I don’t and haven’t worked for this government.
I would have supported both protests if they had confined themselves to Parliament Hill. This? No. I would suggest that every single person who attended watch the first 35 minutes of "Saving Private Ryan" to get a reminder of just how good they have it.
I have lots. I just do not waste much of my time on people who are just not worth it. We are too far into this sordid state of affairs to really get bogged down. This morning I read a piece in The Line from a federal bureaucrat who used the clothing people wore and the way they spoke and expressed themselves to write off an entire segment of society under an issue that has been forefront in our country for some time now. The very fact this piece exists, that it was conceived and thought of as appropriate, good enough to share on a publication like The Line, is all I need to leave this entire discussion sad and fearful for what will come next in our country.
But you'll read this, probably think and then call me a con or whatever not-really-clever-pun you can come with about a person who doesn't think or see the world like you. You'll pretend like this is my great sin, and if only I got get onboard then everything would be fine and we'd all have the best Canada we can. You don't know anything about me, but like Mr. McCarthy, you obviously don't care.
No, you still have nothing...except stupid assumptions about folks you have never met and probably never will. Name-calling, insults, accusations and gaslighting. But you are correct on one thing, I don't care either.
I'm going to take the opposite approach and say that's what our grandparents fought for, the freedom to get up and say stupid things, otherwise known as freedom of speech.
The other positive is that the progressive left is unlikey to bring in a mob and tear down it down as a symbol of western colonialism.
The monument stands on unceded territory, but it includes Indigenous Canadians who fought and fell in disproportionate numbers and with great valour. The crowd that assembled here last weekend has a policy dispute with the current government and can take it to Canada's Front Yard, Parliament Hill. I like to think that the spirits of the late veterans, Indigenous and settler-descended, look down happily on kids skateboarding at the foot of their monument. Last weekend's crowd? Maybe not so much.
The National War Memorial is on Canadian soil. The tomb of the unknown solider does not rest in your politically charged terms, it rests in Canada, in Canadian soil. You want to defend veterans and Canada? Stop with this unceded territory garbage especially when talking about a national memorial in our nation's capital.
Lots of comments. I appreciate them being shared by the Line. Being 78 and having served, I see the National War Memorial and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier as a national cemetery. When I go to a cemetery,I show respect, I don’t walk on graves and I pause and reflect on the lives of the love ones buried there . I am moved and I say a prayer. I don’t pick it as a place to protest war or anything else. Old fashioned maybe, out of tune with the horrors of war and the freedoms fought for , not so much.
I'm a veteran and no Trudeau fan, but these protesters disgust me to no end. So disrespectful. It's bad enough to see the jeans and black vest Veteran patch wearing types on parade on Remembrance Day. This bunch last weekend make me livid. Time and place, and the NWM is not the place.
It is hard to comment on this article, especially after reading some of the comments. I respect and support the right to protest and express our respective views. The question really seems to be - how we do it. This rally/convoy and the last have chosen noise and behaviour to deliver their messages - glorying in their negative impact on others at important sites and on important symbols to garner attention. It is hard to see any 'respect' intended vs the thousands who show up respectfully on Nov 11th and other dates. The cenotaph has important meaning to citizens of Ottawa - as well as the rest of the country. The sadness and anger at murder of Cirello at the cenotaph remains in our hearts whenever we view the monument. I wish groups could find ways to 'protest' in less confrontational or disruptive ways.
I look forward to Mr. McCarthy's take on the countless other statues of our founding fathers which have been desecrated and torn down by various woke mobs.
Founding fathers (usually in lower case) has always sounded so American to me. The Fathers of Confederation (usually with caps) on the other hand clearly states who you are talking about. As many of the flags that now pop up at the vague "freedom" rallys show a serious confusion of both Canadian and American history.
Why do only cons use woke as a negative, an insult?
Oh boo hoo. You are a Liberal staffer, which means (unless you worked for Pearson) that you hold our troops and veterans in contempt, and only use them for domestic political purposes, like now.
The real desecrators are the current government, who have shredded the constitution and rights that Canadians fought for in numerous wars, by keeping unvaccinated Canadians prisoner in their own country, firing them from their jobs (and the military), and then denying them EI, as further punishment.
Mark, I'd ask you not accuse our guest contributors of holding anyone in contempt — I've been as critical as the LPC on military matters as anyone in the Canadian media, but your comment is not a political commentary, it's a personal accusation, and I'm not thrilled with that. Please behave.
Fair, and I will try to draw the line more finely and express myself more clearly. My claim is really that your contributor has worked in a political capacity for a party which, since Pearson's time, has knowingly treated the Canadian military with disdain and contempt, as shown most egregiously in the famed "soldiers in our streets" incident. I do not, of course, know that Mr. McCarthy personally shares these views. I apologize for overstepping.
David, I absolutely - I say, absolutely - disagree with you.
For background, I am 71 and have those famous co-morbidities so I am in the vulnerable group. I chose to get the vaccines absolutely as soon as I could - I have now been shot four times with the Pfizer vaccine. I did that for me; I did not do that for anyone else (I know, selfish). To repeat, I chose to do that.
From my perspective, I am quite willing to meet and treat with the unvaccinated. Truth is, from all that I have read, they are (perhaps - perhaps, I say) a danger to themselves but they are not a danger to me. And, even if they were a danger to me, I absolutely have no right to impose my version of health safety on them. If I don't appreciate how they choose to deal with their own health I can stay away from them in whatever way I might choose. [Of course, I have not dealt with the issues of vaccine effectiveness, potential harms from the vaccine, etc. But I digress.]
I do not choose to stay away from the unvaccinated so I have no problem.
If you are worried about the possibility of meeting someone unvaccinated, you can stay in your house - YOUR CHOICE. See, you have a choice, which you are trying to deny to the unvaccinated.
Yup, I do remember polio. I also had friends .... I personally had mumps and measles ... We can go on and compare histories and likely we would be similar in many respects.
One final point (a jab, actually) before I conclude. It is my inference that you seem to want to control society for the "good of society." The question that arises is for how long would that last? I know that I am absolutely not willing to trust any, I repeat, any, government or government agency to honestly and competently report on a "good" time to eliminate such rules.
I think that the best way to come to a final summation is to say that it appears to me that your approach is that of a collectivist and mine is that of an individualist. To be entirely unfair, I consider the collectivist approach to be one that I see in Quebec society - whether correct or incorrect; by contrast, I submit that the individualist approach is more one of a Western Canadian (I am an Albertan).
I know that I have made some leaps in my entirely unsophisticated "logic" but, there it is. So, good luck and please understand that my approach is not meant to cause harm to you or yours but simply that I / we in my part of the country have a very different approach.
If I was from oh, say, Nigeria or from, say, Viet Nam the human rights folks would be out in full cry at your discrimination. Discrimination based on national origin. Violation of human rights! Ban him! Silence him! Deplatform him!
Oh, but I am from Alberta so I am fair game. Well, maybe not. After all you are discriminating against me because of my subnational origin. Surely that is illegal.
On the other hand, you betray your "woke" stupidity. You cannot see beyond by place of origin so it is clear that from now on I can simply ignore your commentary, pointless as it is.
The conduct there this weekend was disappointing, but not surprising. I, too, would favour Parks Canada custody of the site, given the tremendous job they do with the conservation of historic structures on park lands across Canada.
Many of my family members fought and died for our and others freedoms and I can more than assure you they would be horrified at the actions taken, policies made, that continue to be made, that are to stifle the very freedoms they gave their lives for. These privileged, progressive, elected, and unelected, people that feed at the taxpayers trough, have desecrated everything these brave soldiers fought and died for. They demonize, divide, and categorize Canadian's as to those who follow their dictate blindly, through the constant fear mongering by the paid for Corporate media, and by those who stand up against their tyranny and complete degradation of our Constitution and Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Those soldiers, to which the monument was erected, would be horrified by the actions taken, being taken, and the complete erosion of everything they fought and died for by their own Government of Canada.
People conveniently forget that "breaking the law" is not free speech. The police may hang back from enforcing jaywalking laws, say, when there's a march down a street, with no parade permit, but they don't have to.
Remember the "mic check" annoyance from the Occupy meetings, where everybody would shout out every line? That's because they were told they'd be tossed from the park if they used an amplifier of any kind, say a bullhorn. Against the bylaw! Quite the contrast to standing by, listening to weeks of truck horns. Ottawa happened because the police were physically overwhelmed, and never start a fight they can't utterly dominate.
BLM also smashed a lot of windows in Montreal, if memory serves, same reason - just not able to deal with the numbers. I don't see a lot of police bias either way, in recent years.
I wish a former CPC MP or staffer had written this piece about respecting the war memorial. I think comments would have all been in agreement. I look at the hostility between parties in the US & think - is Canada yet again going to reflect a trend south of the border?
My principle gripe with this article is not the issue of memorializing a great tragedy. While the architect of the monument, as I understand it, sought to avoid tones of triumph, nevertheless, the World War it was erected to memorialize was by most accounts a war between imperialists fighting to divide the world through military might.
I lived in Ottawa for many years, so I am familiar with how folks interact with the war memorial. They have lunch on its steps, kids play around it, tourists take pictures, many simply ignore it on their way to and fro, until occasion has it dressed up for some kind of official ceremony. Or indeed for protest.
What it appears not to be, for most folks, is a monument to the glory of empire. Like Vimy, it's largely a monument to tragedy, as if to mock the soaring arches and the attendant divinities. The weight of loss weighs heavier than any nostalgia for imperial destiny. So comparisons to American war memorials, or European ones with heroic figures mounted on horseback swept up in prideful gesture, fall well short of Canuck sensibilities. Although colonial Canada has always had some kind of imperial affiliation which has been the basis of its calls to arms, we have no empire to enforce. And while Indigenous folks may opine that reconciliation is synonymous with decolonization, nevertheless the imperial centres have always been located elsewhere.
So I would not want to see the memorial become the property of any kind of permanent military orchestration demanding stately allegiance. Better it remain as it is, the informal property of Canucks, picnicking, protesting, or ignoring as our moments of collective memory elide with present concerns. If anything, the memorial is a monument to the spirit of Canuck ambivalence to any national militarist narrative propagandists attempt to impose upon it and upon us. And in that, our spirit may join more thoroughly and heartfelt those grim souls labouring beneath those dark arches towards a peace they will only know, tentatively, in us.
The way the war Memorial and the Terry Fox Memorial were both desecrated but the Trucker protests shows how low class and despicable those so called freedom people were. I can't believe my father's generation would do something so disrespectful.
In any sort of protest movement there is going to be all manner of behaviour that is found to be objectionable by some, and laudible by others. For my part, I'm in broad agreement with Dan McCarthy that military monuments ought to be treated with respect, and there are certain standards of conduct, decorum, and civil discourse that ought to be respected in their presence. Call me old-fashioned, but I was brought up with such values. My time in the military reinforced them.
But, with all respect, Mr. McCarthy has missed the point here - the point is not that this particular protest movement is misbehaving against norms of civility that were present mere decades ago. Rather, the point is that this particular protest movement exists, and we ought to be asking ourselves, "Why?" Why is it that there is such an apparently large and vocal group of people in our society for whom Mr. McCarthy's norms apparently no longer apply? Why are so many people defying authority to express their outrage in ways that would have been considered unthinkable even 10 or 20 years ago?
Canadian institutions are not "under unprecedented attack." Rather, Canadian institutions have been neglected and have atrophied. Perhaps this is because of a conspiracy of elites to create a "post national" Canadian identity (as the tinfoil-hat camp might suggest), or perhaps it's the result of all of us taking our eye off the ball during a long period when our institutions really didn't need much strength anymore. What's the underlying cause here?
In any event, here we are. Canadians of our present not behaving like the Canadians of our youth. Let's not point fingers at bad behaviour - instead, let's try and understand it.
Because the idea of legally discriminating against a group of Canadians, firing them from their jobs, and banning them from travel would also have been unthinkable 10 or 20 years ago. Our rights are under unprecedented attack
We didn't have a pandemic 10 or 20 years ago. Something you continue to ignore in your daily briefing on the rights of people to share the worst health calamity in a century with as many people as possible. You constantly deny the damage done to our healthcare systems and their ability to provide even emergency services because they were overwhelmed with COVID patients. You ignore that virtually every other nation on earth imposed restrictions of some kind, and the one to our south that thought it would "magically disappear" leads the world in deaths to date. Pretending your house isn't on fire doesn't stop it from burning down. Your insistence on completely ignoring the concept of social responsibility is a large part of why we have whining protests like this.
All that past stuff is literally irrelevant to the protest and my comment.
We all know that banning people from travel is a serious violation of our charter rights (and that no other democratic country is banning its own citizens from travel).
We all know that the vaccines do nothing (at best) to reduce infection or transmission.
Therefore, we all know that the travel ban is a serious and totally unjustified violation of our charter rights by discriminating against a group of people. This is unprecedented in Canada since at least when they signed the Charter. Why do you keep bringing in irrelevant red herrings?
Just in case you want to contend that the shots do reduce transmission, here again is the proof that you are wrong: https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/case-numbers-and-spread#casesByVaccinationStatus
Travel isn't guaranteed under the Charter. You can live where you want, and work where you want. Travelling around for fun is not protected.
We know that vaccines make a huge difference in severe outcomes, which impact the function of the healthcare system for everyone.
Case counts in Ontario are irrelevant since testing is only being done for those in healthcare. Every single news report states that case counts are inaccurate due to a lack of testing.
Actually, the right to leave Canada is literally guaranteed. Saying "you can leave to one place that won't have you, but not to anywhere else" violates it. Saying "you can leave, but only if you can afford a private jet" also violates it.
By introducing hospitalization, are you admitting that vaccines don't reduce transmission?
If case counts are irrelevant, how do you know there is a pandemic at all? If case counts are understated by a factor of 10, then Covid is less dangerous than a cold, so how do you justify violating people's rights in an attempt to prevent it?
You are starting from a conclusion (that people should be forced to take the shot regardless of whether there is any material benefit) and working backward to try to rationalize it.
Well, for 18 months you could go nowhere because no one would allow you in. The government also passed several laws allowing them to do what they did. As I've said many times, pretending things are normal in a pandemic is absurd. https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/covid.html
With Omicron, I'm not sure. Since there's so little testing going on right now, I'm not sure anyone has a clear picture. But in the previous variants, yes, I'm saying that. Note from your own source page, 25% of people in ICU's are unvaccinated; they're 10% of the population.
I'm not an epidemiologist, but I do know that 38000 people have died of COVID in the last two years. People are still dying of it daily. Yes, there are ebbs and flows; likely coming back in the fall when indoor activities increase. How do I know there's a pandemic? Because the Ontario Science Table says it's not over but is becoming endemic. I generally take medical advice from the best experts I can find. Dr Brown has been superb, Anyway, at that point, I expect restrictions will drop further and you'll be free to leave the country. It will probably happen fairly soon. However, air travel will remain a nightmare for several months as there is no staff for any of the professions so expect it to suck for a long time.
Thee are no polite words I can use to express my contempt for your question about whether there is still a pandemic. It is literally too stupid to respond to. It is well reported and evident that vaccination made you 30 times less likely to be hospitalised and 80 times less likely to end up in the ICU with the early variants. Current data with a third dose has slightly less effective results with Omicron. Hospital counts confirm that reality to this day. I don't need to rationalise anything as the data is on my side....as it has been since we began this debate months ago. You used the same data in your post today. They're now publishing death statistics by vaccination status. I've included them for your interest. You'll note that at all times, the unvaccinated have the highest mortality. The vaccine is a miracle, but it can't stop you from dying. But it sure seems to help delay it. https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/case-numbers-and-spread
So no, I don't think anyone's rights have been violated because the good of the country was put ahead of your personal wants. If you wanted to travel, you had that option. You chose not to take it. You made your decision, and you live with its consequences...like every other decision you make every day. I suspect I'll be long dead before Rocco Galati's lawsuit makes a shred of headway...assuming he's still pursuing it.
Mark Ch, I clicked on your link and it seems to show vaccinated individuals make up twice as many cases than the unvaccinated. Is this your proof? Since the vast majority are vaccinated this shows the opposite of what you think it does.
Look again. It shows the rate per 100,000 people with that vax status.
"Rate per 100,000 (7-day average) is the average rate of COVID-19 cases per 100,000 for each vaccination status for the previous 7 days as noted. Rate of COVID-19 cases per 100,000 is calculated by dividing the number of cases for a vaccination status, by the total number of people with the same vaccination status, and then multiplying by 100,000."
Mark, the unvaccinated are grouped together with the partially vaccinated as of March 11, 2022.
If you look at the underlying data
https://data.ontario.ca/en/dataset/covid-19-vaccine-data-in-ontario/resource/c08620e0-a055-4d35-8cec-875a459642c3
you will see the higher rates for the unvaccinated.
I can travel unvaxxed to many countries now, if only I could escape Canada. Obviously they don't need to honour my Charter rights - only Canada need do that. The countries that I can travel to aren't honouring any rights - only common sense and actual science, unlike Canada.
My sense of these protests is they are a symptom of a larger problem. We've moved from thinking of ourselves as citizens -- as people with some shared interests worth defending --- to thinking of ourselves as consumers -- individuals looking to maximise their own self-interests.
You see it reflected in elections, where serious talk of policy is evaoporating and campaigns are becoming targeted marketing campaigns -- suburbian Moms get this tax credit; Gen Z gets this tuition subsidy; whoever you are, they've got a deal for you!
A consumer mindset, nurtured by a lifetime of influence by consumer marketing and advertising, is essentially one of entilement. That's seemed to spill over in the public realm. What's the government going to do for me? My problems are most important! What isn't somebody solving them? We laugh and mock the "Karens" online, but it feels like that sense of entitlement has permeated most of the culture.
I fear that this culture is an unavoidable result of decades of relatively good times. I'm 55. I've never had to fight in a war. I've never been truly poor or hungry or feared for my security. These are all fantastic things, and they are true for a lot of Canadians. But, I can see how one can start to take our lot in life for granted; to be convinced that we should have even more! That very little should be asked of any of us, but we should receive endless, ever growing bounty.
I hope I'm wrong. Canada faces a bunch of collective challenges. We have an economy that isn't productive enough, especially compared to peer nations, and we don't really know how to address this. Climate change is going to remake entire industries and we don't really have a fulsome plan, yet. We're a small power who had relied on a post-WW2 world order that's rapidly changing, and it's not clear what comes next or whether we can adapt. We've concentrated a lot of our wealth into fewer hands, which probably isn't helping the productivity issue and is among the root causes of reduced social cohesion as well.
My gut is that if we solve these big, collective challenges, the short-term, "on the news" problems -- the pandemic, high housing prices, inflation -- all become more managable. But, we're getting caught in this cycle of outrage -- of spending all our energy on emotional, short-term issues while avoiding the (somewhat boring) patient work of solving the broader (but also shared) challenges.
All of which to say -- I agree with a lot of this proposal, but it's one of those relatively short-term, emotional issues that I worry distract us. No issue with changing the way the memorial is managed or how future protests are handled there. But, no offense intended, it feels like a relatively minor (but incredibly emotional) part of the broader story.
Couldn't have said it any better myself. Thank you.
Where were you when the Sir John Macdonald statue was being removed from Victoria City Hall? How about when the statue of Cook was thrown into Victoria harbour? Where were you when the proper name was removed from Langevin Block? I am glad you decided to draw a line in the sand at the War Memorial, but honestly, this kind of crap has been going on for awhile now and I find it terribly rich that the hot air and talking heads all come out in force for a rally or event they don't support politically, but keep their big mouths shut when it something progressive, or woke. Shame. You have an affinity for monuments and statues and you are a Liberal. What a joke.
Was I pleased with the decapitation of Sir John A in Montreal - no. But I wasn’t there. Check out a February article I wrote in OttawaLife on the Maple Leaf for some previous commentary. As to being a Liberal, I’m proud of the work I did in the Chrétien-Martin governments. I have no affiliation with the current government. As to your “big mouth” comment, my thoughts obviously gave you something to do this morning. Other than calling me a joke, I do appreciate your comments.
I found nothing particularly "woke" about this commentary. It's all fair comment.
That wasn't the point of my criticism. The point is that I feel Mr. McCarthy is disingenuous when he cries foul for protests taking place at the War Memorial but remains utterly silent when similar and even more violent mobs take places elsewhere throughout the country, even in his own backyard. I blame the government he worked with for a lot of these problems, because they have stoked the division and fear through this exact sort of template. Attack those who you are not politically aligned with and use reasons that are not applied equally to everyone.
I do not even care anymore. Each and every day in Canada I feel more and more like how Cato the Younger must have felt in the ancient Roman republic when everyone turned into a hypocrite and lied and trampled all over their ideals. It is not a matter of conservative or liberal or woke or progressive, it is beyond politics, it is about decency in comportment, honesty in approach and calling a spade a spade. This spade is broken, this spade is trying to pull a fast one of us hugging a statue in the name of putting down political opponents he refuses to understand, while attempted to rouse a segment of the population into opposing them as well for a reason far removed from the truth and reality of the situation.
You’re right - it is about decency and comportment, particularly on a site such as the National War Memorial. There were little of those attributes on display last Saturday. And that’s my point.
Tricky subject. The Canadian Armed Forces - like any honorable armed forces - has plenty of dishonourable actions that deserve shame and contempt. So, whose to decide what’s appropriate or not, someone whose kin has likely only been benefited by CAF?
Picking one thing (military service) to elevate above all others seems closer philosophically to jingoistic war mongering than a sensible take on free expression in a democracy.
Were the folks the author describes classless assholes? I guess. Is that an important input to an important decision? Not obvious to me.
Sticking to the topic of classy behavior, the author would do well to remember that our Prime Minister grew up the son of a PM and still can’t remember just how many times he decided to black up. Why, pray tell, is Jr’s behavior any less contemptible than tomb dancers?
They could have gathered on the lawn of parliament hill, wouldn't have made a difference for Mr. McCarthy, he doesn't support them, doesn't understand them just like the government he works for, so they are offensive and shouldn't be allowed to gather. The War Memorial is what we call a red herring, just pure luck that gives him just enough motivation to spill ink and just enough blood from the bleeding hearts across this country who wake up when something happens to a war memorial to write this bold piece of garbage up and share it on here. I didn't hear a peep from his man as statue after statue was being torn down across the country during violent mobs passing as peaceful protests, but oh flags that say F-Trudeau at the War Memorial, whoa whoa too much man, I like statues.
The statues are just bronze and stone. It’s the national memory and history that they embody that is important. And as mentioned earlier, I don’t and haven’t worked for this government.
I would have supported both protests if they had confined themselves to Parliament Hill. This? No. I would suggest that every single person who attended watch the first 35 minutes of "Saving Private Ryan" to get a reminder of just how good they have it.
So Mac, you have nothing.
I have lots. I just do not waste much of my time on people who are just not worth it. We are too far into this sordid state of affairs to really get bogged down. This morning I read a piece in The Line from a federal bureaucrat who used the clothing people wore and the way they spoke and expressed themselves to write off an entire segment of society under an issue that has been forefront in our country for some time now. The very fact this piece exists, that it was conceived and thought of as appropriate, good enough to share on a publication like The Line, is all I need to leave this entire discussion sad and fearful for what will come next in our country.
But you'll read this, probably think and then call me a con or whatever not-really-clever-pun you can come with about a person who doesn't think or see the world like you. You'll pretend like this is my great sin, and if only I got get onboard then everything would be fine and we'd all have the best Canada we can. You don't know anything about me, but like Mr. McCarthy, you obviously don't care.
No, you still have nothing...except stupid assumptions about folks you have never met and probably never will. Name-calling, insults, accusations and gaslighting. But you are correct on one thing, I don't care either.
The little numbers after the heart shaped icon under my comments tell a much different story that you paint here my friend. Happy trails.
Ottawa is unceded Algonquin Anishinabe territory.
When you write a comment why do you anticipate the response?
What little hearts? Are you here for the hearts?
I'm going to take the opposite approach and say that's what our grandparents fought for, the freedom to get up and say stupid things, otherwise known as freedom of speech.
The other positive is that the progressive left is unlikey to bring in a mob and tear down it down as a symbol of western colonialism.
The monument stands on unceded territory, but it includes Indigenous Canadians who fought and fell in disproportionate numbers and with great valour. The crowd that assembled here last weekend has a policy dispute with the current government and can take it to Canada's Front Yard, Parliament Hill. I like to think that the spirits of the late veterans, Indigenous and settler-descended, look down happily on kids skateboarding at the foot of their monument. Last weekend's crowd? Maybe not so much.
The National War Memorial is on Canadian soil. The tomb of the unknown solider does not rest in your politically charged terms, it rests in Canada, in Canadian soil. You want to defend veterans and Canada? Stop with this unceded territory garbage especially when talking about a national memorial in our nation's capital.
Lots of comments. I appreciate them being shared by the Line. Being 78 and having served, I see the National War Memorial and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier as a national cemetery. When I go to a cemetery,I show respect, I don’t walk on graves and I pause and reflect on the lives of the love ones buried there . I am moved and I say a prayer. I don’t pick it as a place to protest war or anything else. Old fashioned maybe, out of tune with the horrors of war and the freedoms fought for , not so much.
I'm a veteran and no Trudeau fan, but these protesters disgust me to no end. So disrespectful. It's bad enough to see the jeans and black vest Veteran patch wearing types on parade on Remembrance Day. This bunch last weekend make me livid. Time and place, and the NWM is not the place.
Right on Ted, I just read this article now, first I heard of this and like you am totally disgusted. Stupidity is alive and well in Canada!!
It is hard to comment on this article, especially after reading some of the comments. I respect and support the right to protest and express our respective views. The question really seems to be - how we do it. This rally/convoy and the last have chosen noise and behaviour to deliver their messages - glorying in their negative impact on others at important sites and on important symbols to garner attention. It is hard to see any 'respect' intended vs the thousands who show up respectfully on Nov 11th and other dates. The cenotaph has important meaning to citizens of Ottawa - as well as the rest of the country. The sadness and anger at murder of Cirello at the cenotaph remains in our hearts whenever we view the monument. I wish groups could find ways to 'protest' in less confrontational or disruptive ways.
I look forward to Mr. McCarthy's take on the countless other statues of our founding fathers which have been desecrated and torn down by various woke mobs.
Founding fathers (usually in lower case) has always sounded so American to me. The Fathers of Confederation (usually with caps) on the other hand clearly states who you are talking about. As many of the flags that now pop up at the vague "freedom" rallys show a serious confusion of both Canadian and American history.
Why do only cons use woke as a negative, an insult?
Why wait? You and EJ Mac can write your own take on the "countless statues" and submit it to the Line. I'll read it.
Oh boo hoo. You are a Liberal staffer, which means (unless you worked for Pearson) that you hold our troops and veterans in contempt, and only use them for domestic political purposes, like now.
The real desecrators are the current government, who have shredded the constitution and rights that Canadians fought for in numerous wars, by keeping unvaccinated Canadians prisoner in their own country, firing them from their jobs (and the military), and then denying them EI, as further punishment.
Mark, I'd ask you not accuse our guest contributors of holding anyone in contempt — I've been as critical as the LPC on military matters as anyone in the Canadian media, but your comment is not a political commentary, it's a personal accusation, and I'm not thrilled with that. Please behave.
Fair, and I will try to draw the line more finely and express myself more clearly. My claim is really that your contributor has worked in a political capacity for a party which, since Pearson's time, has knowingly treated the Canadian military with disdain and contempt, as shown most egregiously in the famed "soldiers in our streets" incident. I do not, of course, know that Mr. McCarthy personally shares these views. I apologize for overstepping.
Thank you.
If you're going to police comments you should just turn them off.
Oh, and PS: Asking someone to be polite isn't "policing" anything, Lucas. It's asking someone to be polite.
Nah. We'd like to keep them open. We just think people should behave. Our house, our rules, etc.
I think that Matt's approach to comments that overstep his bounds of civility is just right.
Are you able to name a political party in Canada whose actions don't hold veterans in contempt?
"It's all for one and one for all in Canada. You want personal rights, move to the US!"
So that Charter of Rights and Freedoms thingy is irrelevant now?
David, I absolutely - I say, absolutely - disagree with you.
For background, I am 71 and have those famous co-morbidities so I am in the vulnerable group. I chose to get the vaccines absolutely as soon as I could - I have now been shot four times with the Pfizer vaccine. I did that for me; I did not do that for anyone else (I know, selfish). To repeat, I chose to do that.
From my perspective, I am quite willing to meet and treat with the unvaccinated. Truth is, from all that I have read, they are (perhaps - perhaps, I say) a danger to themselves but they are not a danger to me. And, even if they were a danger to me, I absolutely have no right to impose my version of health safety on them. If I don't appreciate how they choose to deal with their own health I can stay away from them in whatever way I might choose. [Of course, I have not dealt with the issues of vaccine effectiveness, potential harms from the vaccine, etc. But I digress.]
I do not choose to stay away from the unvaccinated so I have no problem.
If you are worried about the possibility of meeting someone unvaccinated, you can stay in your house - YOUR CHOICE. See, you have a choice, which you are trying to deny to the unvaccinated.
Yup, I do remember polio. I also had friends .... I personally had mumps and measles ... We can go on and compare histories and likely we would be similar in many respects.
One final point (a jab, actually) before I conclude. It is my inference that you seem to want to control society for the "good of society." The question that arises is for how long would that last? I know that I am absolutely not willing to trust any, I repeat, any, government or government agency to honestly and competently report on a "good" time to eliminate such rules.
I think that the best way to come to a final summation is to say that it appears to me that your approach is that of a collectivist and mine is that of an individualist. To be entirely unfair, I consider the collectivist approach to be one that I see in Quebec society - whether correct or incorrect; by contrast, I submit that the individualist approach is more one of a Western Canadian (I am an Albertan).
I know that I have made some leaps in my entirely unsophisticated "logic" but, there it is. So, good luck and please understand that my approach is not meant to cause harm to you or yours but simply that I / we in my part of the country have a very different approach.
Fascinating. Just fascinating.
If I was from oh, say, Nigeria or from, say, Viet Nam the human rights folks would be out in full cry at your discrimination. Discrimination based on national origin. Violation of human rights! Ban him! Silence him! Deplatform him!
Oh, but I am from Alberta so I am fair game. Well, maybe not. After all you are discriminating against me because of my subnational origin. Surely that is illegal.
On the other hand, you betray your "woke" stupidity. You cannot see beyond by place of origin so it is clear that from now on I can simply ignore your commentary, pointless as it is.
The conduct there this weekend was disappointing, but not surprising. I, too, would favour Parks Canada custody of the site, given the tremendous job they do with the conservation of historic structures on park lands across Canada.
Many of my family members fought and died for our and others freedoms and I can more than assure you they would be horrified at the actions taken, policies made, that continue to be made, that are to stifle the very freedoms they gave their lives for. These privileged, progressive, elected, and unelected, people that feed at the taxpayers trough, have desecrated everything these brave soldiers fought and died for. They demonize, divide, and categorize Canadian's as to those who follow their dictate blindly, through the constant fear mongering by the paid for Corporate media, and by those who stand up against their tyranny and complete degradation of our Constitution and Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Those soldiers, to which the monument was erected, would be horrified by the actions taken, being taken, and the complete erosion of everything they fought and died for by their own Government of Canada.
People conveniently forget that "breaking the law" is not free speech. The police may hang back from enforcing jaywalking laws, say, when there's a march down a street, with no parade permit, but they don't have to.
Remember the "mic check" annoyance from the Occupy meetings, where everybody would shout out every line? That's because they were told they'd be tossed from the park if they used an amplifier of any kind, say a bullhorn. Against the bylaw! Quite the contrast to standing by, listening to weeks of truck horns. Ottawa happened because the police were physically overwhelmed, and never start a fight they can't utterly dominate.
BLM also smashed a lot of windows in Montreal, if memory serves, same reason - just not able to deal with the numbers. I don't see a lot of police bias either way, in recent years.
I loved "mic check"!
I wish a former CPC MP or staffer had written this piece about respecting the war memorial. I think comments would have all been in agreement. I look at the hostility between parties in the US & think - is Canada yet again going to reflect a trend south of the border?
My principle gripe with this article is not the issue of memorializing a great tragedy. While the architect of the monument, as I understand it, sought to avoid tones of triumph, nevertheless, the World War it was erected to memorialize was by most accounts a war between imperialists fighting to divide the world through military might.
I lived in Ottawa for many years, so I am familiar with how folks interact with the war memorial. They have lunch on its steps, kids play around it, tourists take pictures, many simply ignore it on their way to and fro, until occasion has it dressed up for some kind of official ceremony. Or indeed for protest.
What it appears not to be, for most folks, is a monument to the glory of empire. Like Vimy, it's largely a monument to tragedy, as if to mock the soaring arches and the attendant divinities. The weight of loss weighs heavier than any nostalgia for imperial destiny. So comparisons to American war memorials, or European ones with heroic figures mounted on horseback swept up in prideful gesture, fall well short of Canuck sensibilities. Although colonial Canada has always had some kind of imperial affiliation which has been the basis of its calls to arms, we have no empire to enforce. And while Indigenous folks may opine that reconciliation is synonymous with decolonization, nevertheless the imperial centres have always been located elsewhere.
So I would not want to see the memorial become the property of any kind of permanent military orchestration demanding stately allegiance. Better it remain as it is, the informal property of Canucks, picnicking, protesting, or ignoring as our moments of collective memory elide with present concerns. If anything, the memorial is a monument to the spirit of Canuck ambivalence to any national militarist narrative propagandists attempt to impose upon it and upon us. And in that, our spirit may join more thoroughly and heartfelt those grim souls labouring beneath those dark arches towards a peace they will only know, tentatively, in us.
The way the war Memorial and the Terry Fox Memorial were both desecrated but the Trucker protests shows how low class and despicable those so called freedom people were. I can't believe my father's generation would do something so disrespectful.
That was where Nathan Cyrillo was killed, right?