Does anyone else find the comments and threats that come from trans-women (formerly males) to be extremely masculine in their tone and choice of language. I've not heard many woman in my life call another woman a cunt or bitch or hag. And even more rarely, have I heard a woman threaten the life of another person. On the other hand, this is pretty typical and strong emotionally charged language from a sex of human being incapable of emotional nuance-- aka males. How much of this trans-activism is real misogyny masquerading as progress? The most extreme elements of that end of the debate increasingly feel to me more and more like another attempt for insecure males to dominate female spaces and female-only issues. The language is extremely indicative of this to me.
Your thesis about violence and harrassment is absolutely true. BUT:
"Of course threats of violence made against TERFs are probably not as common" is absolutely false. 'TERF' is no longer a neutral descriptor, but an active term of abuse regularly used to attack vulnerable detransitioners who try to tell their stories; lesbians who assert that by definition they are same-*sex* attracted; and by trans women like Jessica Trill and Debbie Hayton who identify as transsexual. (Transwomen happy with their male bodies and penises attack them for "centring their vaginas.") Even rejecting the term "uterus-haver" can get a woman denounced as a "TERF" who should "die in a grease fire" or get "punched in the face."
Trans rights are in our civil and human rights codes, and hate speech legslation. (As they should be.) The radical activists who attack Atwood, Rowling and anyone who believes in women's sex-based rights radiate toxic masculinity. Far from marginalized, they are bullies even within the Alphabet.
You would hope this message of dont threaten to physically harm would be as anodyne as "do your pants up" after going to the bathroom, and yet here we are :(
I am guessing push back to this will be all over the place from "Yeah, but its ok to punch Nazis" (because you are either with us, or a Nazi)... to "Yeah, but they are committing trans genocide with their words against us so its ok to threaten back"....
Although its pat to say "technology", it is an amplifier. I remember back in the 80s after coming home from a night out, we would have a good laugh yelling all sorts of drunken crap at the TV with Jack Van Impe and Raxella on at 3am. Only now, with Twitter, that actually goes out into public. I think that hostility was always there, just now we see more of it.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that any public figure who continues to use Twitter to espouse a view (any view, it really doesn't matter), is at least partially addicted to the adrenaline rush a hate storm provides. I have no comment on what Ms. Atwood had to say, only that she surely knew what vitriol her words would provoke.
I agree with Jen that people shouldn't threaten harm to other people, whether on the internet or in real life (except when I'm on my bike and a driver comes close to killing me - you, sir, deserve a most vicious end), but there is a way to avoid a lot of that:
Leave social media, and keep your views, crap or otherwise, to yourself.
Atwood didn't say *anything*. She retweeted a column asking why the word "woman" was being replaced in mentions of vaginas and giving birth, and a second by a trans woman questioning toxic TRA comments.
Your suggestion effectively means: "Women shut up. If they get physically threatened for a retweet, they asked for it."
Twitter has problems. But it continues to be one of the places where people who have social capital can publicly send the message that the dominant narratives have objectors. As a woman who has been railing against the worst aspects of trans ideology for YEARS, I'm relieved that MA has started to catch on and speak out. Women need to see that kind of bravery - even on Twitter.
Exactly. Because the radical TRAs aren't going to stop. And if people like MA are silenced, or walk away because the harassment is too unpleasant, or makes them afraid to even retweet, the online Borg-think will get even worse. I don't like the fact that the Twitter discourse has real world effects on university administrators, arts organizations, NGOs, politicians and their advisors, but it does, whether or not we'd prefer to wish it away.
I've never understood the influence that Atwood yields, so I reserve scorn (respectful of course) for the people who think she is insightful or important or relevant or interesting. This reminds me of the only teacher that had any lasting influence on my life. I am a naturally born science geek. I take to math and science on my own with little to no assistance. Give me a book (or now a website), and I can figure how something works on my own. The same cannot be said for English. While I never struggled with the subject, I never exceled or enjoyed it either. In Grade 9, I had a very unconvential Engish teacher whose first day intro was something to the tune of "The curiculum calls for study of Canadian literature. Given that a unique Canadian experience does not exist, Canadian Literature is a construct of out of touch politicians. Instead of reading Margaret Atwood, we will be studying good literature." Good literature included "Catcher in the Rye", "Great Expectations", "Cry the Beloved Country", "To Kill a Mockingbird" and "As I Lay Dying".
Now that TERF's have been segmented, have we finally reached peak identity?
Twitter and Facebooks are cesspools of trolls and have no redeeming value. I am more convinced by the day that real discourse can only occur if the participants are invested. That means pay to play (i.e. paid sites where the business model isn't to encourage strong emotions to attract advertising dollars) and less anonymity.
The 2020's will be fine. We are on the cusp of the biggest inflationary wave the world has experienced since the 1980's, which in turn will lead to the first interest rate hikes that people under about their early 40's will have had to manage. Identity politics will fizzle as politicians focus on austerity, and activists need to find real jobs. Bring on the 4% over night discount window!
Margaret Atwood's scorn is a formidable weapon. Look what she did to Stephen Harper over a haircut, and before that, the free trade debate's beaver analogy. Don't mess with Margaret Atwood.
Cringe. Atwood is one of the most read writers in the world, with top rated international films and TV series based on her work, a pair of Booker Awards, and regular consideration for the Nobel Prize.
Canada as a separate but dominated country has done about as well under the U.S. as women, worldwide, have done under men; about the only position they've ever adopted toward us, country to country has been the missionary position and we were not on top. I guess that's why the national wisdom vis-a-vis Them has so often taken the form of lying still, keeping your mouth shut, and pretending you like it....Our national animal is the beaver, noted for its industry and its co-operative spirit. In medieval bestiaries it is also noted for its habit when frightened, of biting off is testicles and offering them to its pursuer. I hope we are not succumbing to some form of that impulse.
Atwood on the inundation of the American popular culture
I subscribe to The Line because the journalists and commentors more often than not lead me to consider issues from angles where I wouldn't have arrived on my own. One of the reasons The Line can do so, is that it seems unbound by traditional tenets of Canadian political commentary.
Does anyone else find the comments and threats that come from trans-women (formerly males) to be extremely masculine in their tone and choice of language. I've not heard many woman in my life call another woman a cunt or bitch or hag. And even more rarely, have I heard a woman threaten the life of another person. On the other hand, this is pretty typical and strong emotionally charged language from a sex of human being incapable of emotional nuance-- aka males. How much of this trans-activism is real misogyny masquerading as progress? The most extreme elements of that end of the debate increasingly feel to me more and more like another attempt for insecure males to dominate female spaces and female-only issues. The language is extremely indicative of this to me.
Especially given that I've lost track of the number of times I've seen comments from TRAs like "Choke on my girl dick". Pardon my language.
Your thesis about violence and harrassment is absolutely true. BUT:
"Of course threats of violence made against TERFs are probably not as common" is absolutely false. 'TERF' is no longer a neutral descriptor, but an active term of abuse regularly used to attack vulnerable detransitioners who try to tell their stories; lesbians who assert that by definition they are same-*sex* attracted; and by trans women like Jessica Trill and Debbie Hayton who identify as transsexual. (Transwomen happy with their male bodies and penises attack them for "centring their vaginas.") Even rejecting the term "uterus-haver" can get a woman denounced as a "TERF" who should "die in a grease fire" or get "punched in the face."
Trans rights are in our civil and human rights codes, and hate speech legslation. (As they should be.) The radical activists who attack Atwood, Rowling and anyone who believes in women's sex-based rights radiate toxic masculinity. Far from marginalized, they are bullies even within the Alphabet.
You would hope this message of dont threaten to physically harm would be as anodyne as "do your pants up" after going to the bathroom, and yet here we are :(
I am guessing push back to this will be all over the place from "Yeah, but its ok to punch Nazis" (because you are either with us, or a Nazi)... to "Yeah, but they are committing trans genocide with their words against us so its ok to threaten back"....
Although its pat to say "technology", it is an amplifier. I remember back in the 80s after coming home from a night out, we would have a good laugh yelling all sorts of drunken crap at the TV with Jack Van Impe and Raxella on at 3am. Only now, with Twitter, that actually goes out into public. I think that hostility was always there, just now we see more of it.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that any public figure who continues to use Twitter to espouse a view (any view, it really doesn't matter), is at least partially addicted to the adrenaline rush a hate storm provides. I have no comment on what Ms. Atwood had to say, only that she surely knew what vitriol her words would provoke.
I agree with Jen that people shouldn't threaten harm to other people, whether on the internet or in real life (except when I'm on my bike and a driver comes close to killing me - you, sir, deserve a most vicious end), but there is a way to avoid a lot of that:
Leave social media, and keep your views, crap or otherwise, to yourself.
Atwood didn't say *anything*. She retweeted a column asking why the word "woman" was being replaced in mentions of vaginas and giving birth, and a second by a trans woman questioning toxic TRA comments.
Your suggestion effectively means: "Women shut up. If they get physically threatened for a retweet, they asked for it."
You couldn’t have interpreted my comment more incorrectly. Let me dumb it down for you:
Twitter is shit
To participate is to acknowledge you will get covered in shit.
I think you should choose not to get shit on yourself.
You do you.
Twitter has problems. But it continues to be one of the places where people who have social capital can publicly send the message that the dominant narratives have objectors. As a woman who has been railing against the worst aspects of trans ideology for YEARS, I'm relieved that MA has started to catch on and speak out. Women need to see that kind of bravery - even on Twitter.
Exactly. Because the radical TRAs aren't going to stop. And if people like MA are silenced, or walk away because the harassment is too unpleasant, or makes them afraid to even retweet, the online Borg-think will get even worse. I don't like the fact that the Twitter discourse has real world effects on university administrators, arts organizations, NGOs, politicians and their advisors, but it does, whether or not we'd prefer to wish it away.
I've never understood the influence that Atwood yields, so I reserve scorn (respectful of course) for the people who think she is insightful or important or relevant or interesting. This reminds me of the only teacher that had any lasting influence on my life. I am a naturally born science geek. I take to math and science on my own with little to no assistance. Give me a book (or now a website), and I can figure how something works on my own. The same cannot be said for English. While I never struggled with the subject, I never exceled or enjoyed it either. In Grade 9, I had a very unconvential Engish teacher whose first day intro was something to the tune of "The curiculum calls for study of Canadian literature. Given that a unique Canadian experience does not exist, Canadian Literature is a construct of out of touch politicians. Instead of reading Margaret Atwood, we will be studying good literature." Good literature included "Catcher in the Rye", "Great Expectations", "Cry the Beloved Country", "To Kill a Mockingbird" and "As I Lay Dying".
Now that TERF's have been segmented, have we finally reached peak identity?
Twitter and Facebooks are cesspools of trolls and have no redeeming value. I am more convinced by the day that real discourse can only occur if the participants are invested. That means pay to play (i.e. paid sites where the business model isn't to encourage strong emotions to attract advertising dollars) and less anonymity.
Why do I have the unpleasant feeling that the 2020s are resembling the 1920s, and that didn't end well?
The 2020's will be fine. We are on the cusp of the biggest inflationary wave the world has experienced since the 1980's, which in turn will lead to the first interest rate hikes that people under about their early 40's will have had to manage. Identity politics will fizzle as politicians focus on austerity, and activists need to find real jobs. Bring on the 4% over night discount window!
'Asshole' is an equal opportunity IMO. We all have one and we can all be one.
Margaret Atwood's scorn is a formidable weapon. Look what she did to Stephen Harper over a haircut, and before that, the free trade debate's beaver analogy. Don't mess with Margaret Atwood.
Does she really carry that much weight outside the Annex crowd who view the world through CBC tinged glasses?
Cringe. Atwood is one of the most read writers in the world, with top rated international films and TV series based on her work, a pair of Booker Awards, and regular consideration for the Nobel Prize.
Canada as a separate but dominated country has done about as well under the U.S. as women, worldwide, have done under men; about the only position they've ever adopted toward us, country to country has been the missionary position and we were not on top. I guess that's why the national wisdom vis-a-vis Them has so often taken the form of lying still, keeping your mouth shut, and pretending you like it....Our national animal is the beaver, noted for its industry and its co-operative spirit. In medieval bestiaries it is also noted for its habit when frightened, of biting off is testicles and offering them to its pursuer. I hope we are not succumbing to some form of that impulse.
Atwood on the inundation of the American popular culture
Lol...Canada needs to build its political and intellectual classes to protect the unwashed masses from the Americans.
American popular culture is a juggernaut because unlike the Canadian political and intellectual classes, it is diverse, dynamic and relevant.
Why do you think I (and no doubt others) have subscribed to The Line?
I will never guess at others' motivations.
I subscribe to The Line because the journalists and commentors more often than not lead me to consider issues from angles where I wouldn't have arrived on my own. One of the reasons The Line can do so, is that it seems unbound by traditional tenets of Canadian political commentary.
Check out The Sour Grapevine, by Jeremy Sour.
http://www.thesourgrapevine.com/2021/08/is-typhoid-mary-back-among-us.html