I think it was David French who I heard talking about an evangelical pastor who was confronted by his congregation for his “woke” sermon, which was about the teachings of Christ. The pastor talked about how Jesus said to love thy neighbour, feed and clothe the poor, treat others as you would want to be treated, turn the other cheek, etc. But apparently that was too “woke” for the congregation.
Growing up in an evangelical context, none of this conversation was a surprise to me. I'm am a little surprised that dispensationalism didn't come up by name. Some would know it from the "Left Behind" books and films.
This conversation was a good reminder that many people don't realise the importantlce of Israel in modern evangelical eschatology (IE end times beliefs). It isn't just AIPAC and others that prop up support for Israel in the USA. There is also massive support in the evangelical church. There is a reason Mike Huckabee, a former pastor in the Southern Baptist Convention, was named ambassador to Israel.
As a side note— listening to Dr. Gagne really hitting the hard "N" at the end of "Revelation" as a means to subtly steer Jen to the correct pronunciation was so professorial and sweet.
As to recent converts, give them a minute. As a practicing Christian for 35 years and no background from my family my theology has changed a lot over the years. I think all major streams; evangelical, catholic and orthodox have correct ideas and each have weaknesses. Christianity itself evolves. The kingdom is within and without and sooner or later Christ will come back. But we don’t make it happen. We are to make converts but not by force rather like the Christians in Rome by saving babies left on roadsides, having good marriages between one man one woman, and ultimately dying for their faith.
Thanks Jen. Your discussion with Prof. Gagne certainly provided some food for thought and the need to go back and dig around a few parts of the Bible again.
Given the history and path of the Bibles creation in its current forms I can't understand how many of these people assume that it is a chronological and absolutely empirical account of history!
Such a lack of critical thinking is, along with Facebook (the true Anti-Christ) likely to be determined as the reason our current time will be regarded by future historians as the end of Western civilization.
Jen you never cease to amaze me with your choice of guests. To go to Quebec and discover an erudite and articulate Christianity scholar who speaks clear and understandable English is equivalent to Stanley finding Dr Livingstone in Africa in 1871. And your discussion made sense of the religious issues involved far better than a six session course I took on St John of Patmos and the Book of Revelations a few years ago.
I’m not sure how many Christians are Evangelists as you defined them. And I understand there are also evangelists who are adherents of the Roman Catholic Church. Having over 30 churches in our middle size town in Central AZ, we certainly get exposed to to the entire spectrum of views. I even know a Jewish person who belongs to a sect that believes Christ was the messiah.
The definition early in the discussion
of supporters of the AntiChrist as being people who tear others down is a perfect litmus test. Hence the converse supporters of Christ build people up.
For you bible aficionados another test I like is Proverbs 6 : 16-19 which lists the 7 biblical abominations. Great for checking out politicians of all allegiances.
How so many people still believe fantastical magical nonsense never ceases to amaze me.
And for atheist lefties, don't get so smug, you guys invented your own religion in the social justice movement, involving just about as much tortured logic and articles of faith.
The description of the evangelical tendency to personalize events and search for patterns is similar to other right wing adjacent phenomena like QAnon. That includes placing Donald Trump as a messianic figure, which QAnon sees as fighting a demonic conspiracy of pedophiles draining children of their precious bodily fluids.
The same habits also feed conspiracy theories, which have become more associated with the right over the past decade. 9/11 “trutherism”, vaccine panic, election fraud, even the “Flat Earth” people.
I suspect that the hierarchical structure of established churches like the Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans tend to quench a lot of the theological quackery. Those churches are rooted in centuries of scholarship and doctrine, whereas a lot of the evangelical churches lack much of a central authority or are simply non-denominational churches unaffiliated with any particular theology. Still, there’s clearly something about the charismatic Christianity practiced by evangelicals that appeals in a way that the older denominations don’t…
Still, there’s clearly something about the charismatic Christianity practiced by evangelicals that appeals in a way that the older denominations don’t…
END QUOTE
Perhaps it is because, unlike the "older denominations", the "charismatic 'Christians'" seem not to demand a uniform doctrinal conformity. They do, of course, demand political conformity.
More to the point, all manner of outlandish beliefs are tolerated (including the strangely Marxist "prosperity gospel" notion). It is also notable that many of the "pastors" in the "charismatic Christian" movement are not the most well educated (or audited) in Christology and patristic doctrine.
As such, there is much that is not compatible with rigorously observed belief in Orthodoxy, Catholicism and the "more Catholic" of the Protestant sects (Anglicanism and Lutheranism).
I think it was David French who I heard talking about an evangelical pastor who was confronted by his congregation for his “woke” sermon, which was about the teachings of Christ. The pastor talked about how Jesus said to love thy neighbour, feed and clothe the poor, treat others as you would want to be treated, turn the other cheek, etc. But apparently that was too “woke” for the congregation.
With the Canadian media the last few weeks - I was expecting to hear how Pierre Poilievre was the antiChrist.
I nominate DJ Trump for antiChrist.
Interesting and knowledge expanding. Great guest; as usual I wished I had a way to place my hand over Jen's mouth so I could hear more of the guest.
Growing up in an evangelical context, none of this conversation was a surprise to me. I'm am a little surprised that dispensationalism didn't come up by name. Some would know it from the "Left Behind" books and films.
This conversation was a good reminder that many people don't realise the importantlce of Israel in modern evangelical eschatology (IE end times beliefs). It isn't just AIPAC and others that prop up support for Israel in the USA. There is also massive support in the evangelical church. There is a reason Mike Huckabee, a former pastor in the Southern Baptist Convention, was named ambassador to Israel.
As a side note— listening to Dr. Gagne really hitting the hard "N" at the end of "Revelation" as a means to subtly steer Jen to the correct pronunciation was so professorial and sweet.
Good pod.
As to recent converts, give them a minute. As a practicing Christian for 35 years and no background from my family my theology has changed a lot over the years. I think all major streams; evangelical, catholic and orthodox have correct ideas and each have weaknesses. Christianity itself evolves. The kingdom is within and without and sooner or later Christ will come back. But we don’t make it happen. We are to make converts but not by force rather like the Christians in Rome by saving babies left on roadsides, having good marriages between one man one woman, and ultimately dying for their faith.
The guest was very good.
Thanks Jen. Your discussion with Prof. Gagne certainly provided some food for thought and the need to go back and dig around a few parts of the Bible again.
Given the history and path of the Bibles creation in its current forms I can't understand how many of these people assume that it is a chronological and absolutely empirical account of history!
Such a lack of critical thinking is, along with Facebook (the true Anti-Christ) likely to be determined as the reason our current time will be regarded by future historians as the end of Western civilization.
If we lose critical thinking, then our species is at an evolutionary dead end, I think.
Jen you never cease to amaze me with your choice of guests. To go to Quebec and discover an erudite and articulate Christianity scholar who speaks clear and understandable English is equivalent to Stanley finding Dr Livingstone in Africa in 1871. And your discussion made sense of the religious issues involved far better than a six session course I took on St John of Patmos and the Book of Revelations a few years ago.
I’m not sure how many Christians are Evangelists as you defined them. And I understand there are also evangelists who are adherents of the Roman Catholic Church. Having over 30 churches in our middle size town in Central AZ, we certainly get exposed to to the entire spectrum of views. I even know a Jewish person who belongs to a sect that believes Christ was the messiah.
The definition early in the discussion
of supporters of the AntiChrist as being people who tear others down is a perfect litmus test. Hence the converse supporters of Christ build people up.
For you bible aficionados another test I like is Proverbs 6 : 16-19 which lists the 7 biblical abominations. Great for checking out politicians of all allegiances.
Whack job over the top religious types can hold some very disturbing ideas.
Yeah, Jesus said “Love one another, as I have loved you” To many today - I guess that’s disturbing 😳
Jesus was talking to his followers. Paul had the same message, love one another (Christians). Neither were talking about outside the community.
I would suggest that Jesus expects Christians to love more than just other Christians.
No problem with the Christianity you describe. It’s the whack job element who weaponize the concept of Christianity that is disturbing.
Let scripture speak for itself. Personal opinions are where people go off track.
I'm continually impressed by the eclectic range of guests that Jen finds for this podcast. Keep it weird and wonderful Jen!!
Great Conversation
How so many people still believe fantastical magical nonsense never ceases to amaze me.
And for atheist lefties, don't get so smug, you guys invented your own religion in the social justice movement, involving just about as much tortured logic and articles of faith.
Can't people just be normal?
Truly informative Jen, thanks for this!
Another great interview by Jen. I wish I would have heard this when I was a teenager and saved myself some angst.
Peter Thiel is board chair and co-founder of Palantir. CEO has always been Alex Karp.
The description of the evangelical tendency to personalize events and search for patterns is similar to other right wing adjacent phenomena like QAnon. That includes placing Donald Trump as a messianic figure, which QAnon sees as fighting a demonic conspiracy of pedophiles draining children of their precious bodily fluids.
The same habits also feed conspiracy theories, which have become more associated with the right over the past decade. 9/11 “trutherism”, vaccine panic, election fraud, even the “Flat Earth” people.
I suspect that the hierarchical structure of established churches like the Catholics, Anglicans, and Lutherans tend to quench a lot of the theological quackery. Those churches are rooted in centuries of scholarship and doctrine, whereas a lot of the evangelical churches lack much of a central authority or are simply non-denominational churches unaffiliated with any particular theology. Still, there’s clearly something about the charismatic Christianity practiced by evangelicals that appeals in a way that the older denominations don’t…
QUOTE
Still, there’s clearly something about the charismatic Christianity practiced by evangelicals that appeals in a way that the older denominations don’t…
END QUOTE
Perhaps it is because, unlike the "older denominations", the "charismatic 'Christians'" seem not to demand a uniform doctrinal conformity. They do, of course, demand political conformity.
More to the point, all manner of outlandish beliefs are tolerated (including the strangely Marxist "prosperity gospel" notion). It is also notable that many of the "pastors" in the "charismatic Christian" movement are not the most well educated (or audited) in Christology and patristic doctrine.
As such, there is much that is not compatible with rigorously observed belief in Orthodoxy, Catholicism and the "more Catholic" of the Protestant sects (Anglicanism and Lutheranism).